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1 posted on 12/31/2002 8:24:17 AM PST by Bluegrass Federalist
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To: BeerIsGood
Beer...

We have been in Japan and Germany for nearly 60 years, in that time the scum have not started any wars. Think about that.

The US tried isolationism and it did not work. Trouble always came knocking at our door. The first American President that acknowledged that the US would have to be the world policeman was Teddy Roosevelt, way back then, and it seems he was right.

2 posted on 12/31/2002 8:31:08 AM PST by cynicom
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To: BeerIsGood
I'm sure most of us have the gut reaction, "If those ingrates don't want us, let's leave and let them stew in their own juices."

One possible reason for staying is, as you suggest, that it may be in our long-term national interest. As a general rule, global stability is in our national interest, and it's possible that the presence of our troops contributes to stability.

Another point to consider is that, once we leave, it might be hard to reverse the process if we need to in the future.

The troops in Germany are no longer needed to defend against a Soviet invasion, but they might be useful to remind Russia not to be tempted by a very vulnerable Europe. And to remind Europe that much as they hate to admit it, they still need NATO to defend them.
3 posted on 12/31/2002 8:35:22 AM PST by Cicero
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To: BeerIsGood
The other side of the question is who is it that doesn't like us? Foreign elites are even more deviant from their populations then the leftist elitists in the US. Most of the people overseas like the US and want to live here. Their governments act like we're about to nuke them.

Freedom threatens the way of life that foreign elites have carved out for themselves in their penny-ante economies. While they're in control they make sure that it seems like their populations agree with them, but polling data shows otherwise. There's a reason that the US is now one-fourth of the world economy and still growing. Freedom.
4 posted on 12/31/2002 8:37:39 AM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: BeerIsGood
You need Ramstein and you want Ramstein. Then you´ll get Ramstein. Germany does not need the presence of US forces, but they don´t disturb us. We welcome US servicemen here - although formerly occupation troops they behaved like protectors against the Reds.

For the history books: it were the weak eastern economy, Kohl & his diplomacy and the growing resistance in the East (demonstrations in Leipzig and Dresden) which lead to a change of mind in the heads of the Soviets.

The US were among the first to support this development, but they didn´t initiate it.

Because it seems, that here´s a lack of information:
the US troops in Japan and Germany were occupation forces, the costs for their stationing during the occupation time (1945-1994) were paid by the occupated states (Japan and Germany). Today the bases are financed by the US military, no money is transferred by the US to Japan/Germany nor by Germany/Japan to the US.

If you want to leave, feel free. If not, we still welcome your presence!



8 posted on 12/31/2002 8:52:18 AM PST by Michael81Dus
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To: BeerIsGood
"Foreign Policy: Why Defend Those Who Don't Want Us?"

Because Mass Slavery is Evil, and G-d has commanded us to oppose it.

Keep the faith with those who sleep in the dust...

10 posted on 12/31/2002 9:00:30 AM PST by Uncle Miltie
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To: BeerIsGood
This is my first extended rumination of the day, and I've been trying to compose a tirade for the Palace which hasn't been going well, so please pardon me if it's a little looser than usual.

It's not really about defending others from their own folly, or against dark forces from whom they can't defend themselves. American armed power exists to defend American interests. In the main, America is best off when tyrants and aggressors are put down sternly and swiftly, because to have these on the loose threatens the increasingly far-flung reach of our trade, our travel, and our extended families.

I tend to favor non-intervention in quarrels less threatening than, say, the discovery of nuclear capabilities in North Korea, unearthing a funding trail that connects Palestinian and al-Qaeda terrorism to Iraq, or learning that Celine Dion's touring south of the border again. But one's judgment on these things is more trustworthy if one has lots of high-quality information than if one is a regular schlump-on-the-sidelines like myself. So we have a national security apparatus with lots of intelligence resources, and which is watched, hopefully closely and continuously, by elected officials for signs of mission overreach.

The painful things about American extra-national military interventions are twofold:

  1. They involve violence and prodigious expenditure;
  2. Sometimes we make things worse. Not always, not even frequently, but it's happened once or twice.

It's simply very hard to know when it's a good idea to entangle ourselves in the conflicts of others. We private citizens are unlikely ever to be able to cross-verify enough of the arguments for an intervention to be confident that we're hearing the truth and nothing but. Governments are uniformly run by people who like having power and love to wield it, so their institutional tendency is to favor such things. We have few checks on overreach other than the desire of officials to be liked by the citizenry, which, come to think of it, has worked surprisingly well even on appointees. Basically, once we put the reins in their hands, we have to trust them to know where they're riding off to, and why.

The dangers are considerable. But the options are few, perhaps none, especially given the perilous state of the world and the amount of envy we engender with our success.

A country needs a military in proportion to how much she has to defend. We need a large one, as possessors of a quarter of the world's wealth. But size alone isn't sufficient. We also have to have our fingers on the pulse of the world, be intimately acquainted with its troubled places and the roots of their miseries -- and sometimes that draws us into others' quarrels all by itself.

Robert A. Heinlein once called America a "blind giant" for her habit of stumbling into wars unknowingly and under-preparedly. Well, we have a better intelligence network now than any previous generation of Americans -- but much of it depends on alliances and involvements that George Washington would have thought unwise, even treasonous. Thus the times have changed.

Worst of all the agonies of this subject is this one: That intelligence network does frequently learn things that private persons ought not to learn, for their own good and the good of the country. Sometimes, its agents must do things in the interests of the nation that would be considered crimes if done by ordinary citizens. It all grows out of the nature of the Game of States, in which "there are no morals, only expedience." (V. I. Lenin)

I'll return to this anon.

Freedom, Wealth, and Peace,
Francis W. Porretto
Visit The Palace Of Reason:
http://www.palaceofreason.com

27 posted on 12/31/2002 10:41:26 AM PST by fporretto
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To: BeerIsGood
We are there more for the strategic bases than the ingrates that live there.
37 posted on 12/31/2002 8:15:21 PM PST by MissAmericanPie
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To: BeerIsGood
First, in both Germany and Korea the candidate barely eeked out a win. In Korea it was within about 2 points, so in other words, the nation is divided. The guy there now is a bona fide lefty, who is following suit of his predecessor. In their case, "Gore" did win. Still though, the question in the case of Korea should not even come close to being isolation from Korea or vice versa.

In reality the Europeans are the ones really to blame for the leftist anti Americanism trash floating around. Their ideals are the ones we are competing with, not really anyone else's. The Koreans view themselves as being small fish in a really BIG pond, but when the socialists and leftist Nobel Prize people award prizes to their previous leader it makes the Koreans think that "they finally got someone to recognize them". The same people awarded Jimmy Carter the award merely to advance their own political agenda.

In regards to Korea, or anywhere strategically, we cannot be of the thinking that our troops will be there forever. The same with Japan. The only reason the troops were there in Korea in the first place is because of Communists and the old framework of how things work.

With the collapse of Communism though, and the eventual collapse of North Korea's regime, then what? What will be the rationale behind stationing troops there? Believe it or not, North Korea is a short term problem.

We have to start rethinking our reasons for being around the world. Right now though we are working within the old framework, when in reality we should be working out a new one, based around the new threats. Until recently there has been little new or prevelant threats. Then there was Sept 11.

To think in the right now terms is short sighted. In the long term, we have to come up with more, or better yet, different reasons. In my estimation I will expect a smaller signature of open big huge military bases, but a massive increase in our plain clothed intel presence around the world. We still have a bad ass military, but what we, and Asia are starting to need is bad ass intel and lightning strikes. We will probably expand our presence around the globe, but the difference will be that our guys will be in suits and ties instead of military uniforms, and most Koreans or Japanese will walk past them on the street not knowing who they are. Asia is also in need of a balance against China so in Asia we will still have the hardware, just a smaller openly military signature there to disrupt the average Joe Kawasaki's life.

Things are going to change, and that is not really a bad thing at all.

In other words, big old huge bases with 100,000 Marines might not really meet our strategic needs anymore.

We will still have the Marines, but they will be stationed in Florida or Hawaii, but able to get to their location with guns blazing in 10-12 hours from the call.

39 posted on 12/31/2002 8:59:03 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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To: BeerIsGood
If we withdraw from everywhere its about like saying "Hey. Let the Democrats have it all..."

Simply put, that would be running away from the fight, ideological even.

Those people who say "America is a hegemon...those pigs...etc" what do we do? Let them continue on in ignorance about us? Should we let them have an uncontested slam dunk against us? Even when its not true? Like I said, Europeans want to be on top of things. They are the real root of the problem.

For me, we have to be who we are and discredit those types of people, and expose them for the ignoramuses they are.

40 posted on 12/31/2002 9:05:10 PM PST by maui_hawaii
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