[betty boop]

Excerpted from Eric Voegelin’s “On Debate and Existence,” originally published in 1967. It has been reprinted in Volume 12 of Eric Voegelin’s Collected Works: Published Essays, 1966-1985. Baton Rouge: Louisiana State University Press, 1990. Available at amazom.com, this volume IMHO is one of the two essential Voegelin works for the generalist reader (the other being the monumental five-volume Order and History).

(My bolds for emphasis throughout.)

BTW, Voegelin is very serious in his remark about the “medical character” of the diagnosis of persons enamored of Second Realities. Arguably taking his cues from Plato, Aristotle, Cicero, et al., he writes (in The German University and German Society, 1966):

Indeed, one cannot realize a Second Reality; but the spiritual closure within it is a real phenomenon and has an actual affect on reality. In this regard the structure of the pneumopathological case [the case of spiritual disorder] doesn’t differ from that of the psychopathological [the case of mental disorder]: the delusions of a paranoid person also correspond to no reality, but the delusions are real and the actions of the paranoid enter into reality.”

[betty boop]

Just in case you might have an interest in this subject, FYI!!!

[tpaine]

The "debate" has, therefore, to assume the forms of (1) a careful analysis of the noetic structure of existence and (2) an analysis of Second Realities with regard to both their constructs and the motivating structure of existence in untruth. "Debate" in this form is hardly a matter of reasoning ---- bla, bla, bla. -- I agree, - the author frames his argument for 'debate' in terms only he [and the pretensious fools who imagine they understand him], -- can deciper.

BTW, does ANYone know what the "noetic structure of existence" is?

[onedoug]

"Too many notes. Just cut a few, and it will be perfect."

Alamo-Girl's Origins seems a smoother fit to me.

AG, ping. Thanks always for "Origins".

[f.Christian]

Good News For The Day

‘But I am among you as one who serves’ (Luke 22:27)

"The most satisfied people are those who have learned to serve; those who have found a cause bigger than themselves, to live for. Self-regard is necessary when we are born. A baby does not care one whit about its mother's comfort. It is an infant's business to be selfish. But if the child matures, as its parents hope, it will develop a capacity to appreciate the world from other people's point of view. Instead of having only subjective values, he will acquire objective ones. She will grow in character to the degree she is able to learn service. To the degree he can find life, by losing it."

"We all hope to grow up, but the... truth is---many never do."

"All of us, more or less, suffer from arrested development. The most severe forms of it, we call narcissim. Narcissistic individuals always think the world is doing them a bad turn. They are baffled, believing everyone is against them. They demand to be the center of attention. They feel constantly opposed, anxious, and defeated. They are unhappy."

"Lincoln was that way in his younger years. It is said that he had all the makings of a neurotic. In 1841 he wrote: "I am now the most miserable man that ever lived. If what I feel were equally distributed to the whole human family, there would not be one cheerful face on earth." Lincoln's amzing development came later when he exchanged his long struggle with himself for a struggle on behalf of his fellowman. He was transformed into a great individual, who blessed the world around him. He learned to serve."

[widowithfoursons]

I see nothing in this dialogue that remotely smacks of Cicero. He would hve been appalled to have his name thrown in with Plato and Aristotle. He only (barely) admired Socates. Cicero did not ascribe to any of this. His writings do not reflect it.

[general_re]

If the motivating experiences are known to the reader and shared by him, the construct will appear satisfactory and credible; if the experiences are not shared…the construct will become incredible…

LOL. Double LOL. Voegelin at his most helpful ;)

[ricpic]

At the risk of extreme oversimplification, could it be said that "The Second Reality" boils down to a systematic rebellion against "The First Reality?"
On the political plane communism, on the social/political plane feminism, environmentalism, the homosexual agenda, racial seperatism; they are all radical rejections of the existing hierarchy: they are all anti-nominal and they are all manifestations of "The Second Reality."
In laymans' terms isn't Voegelin saying that it is impossible to enter into dialogue with people hell bent on overthrowing "The Father?"

[lds23]

There is always the danger of a sort of solipsism in regarding only those things which we can perceive, or are compatible, or allowable to our structures.

The example I always use is the infrared patterns on flowers that look like runways to the pollen for bees, but which we cannot see.

[maro]

I'm sorry, but I found this passage be almost entirely devoid of content. He takes great relish in referring to famous people whom he has (apparently) read. And if I understand him right, he is saying that people who disagree with him are mentally deranged and not just wrong. This seems to be quite arrogant. The Soviets did just this; the enemies of communism were defined to be crazy and therefore put in insane asylums. And "noetic structure of existence" is nonsense.

[Dumb_Ox]

Correspondingly we shall define untruth of existence as a revolt against the conditio humana and the attempt to overlay its reality by the construction of a Second Reality….

I have become somewhat confused by Voegelin's use of the word "reality." What precisely does he mean by it? Are partisans of Second Realities like the denizens of Plato's Cave? And if so, isn't Voegelin simply restating Plato's metaphor in a less poetic fashion?

[Consort]

The Ultimate Unified Theory of Everything consists of: Photons, Croutons, Neurons, Futons, Carrions, Gravitons, Crayons, and Morons.

[beckett]

This is great stuff from Voegelin right up my alley, BB. I've read it a few times and find a wonderfully satisfying flow of logic in it. Thanks for the posting.

[William Terrell]

*Sigh* trying to prove the existance of God to the mind, which can only see itself.