BURNING THE CONSTITUTION: SECRET COURT OKS SPYING ON AMERICANS

CAPITOLBLUE.COM ^ | 11-19-02 | REUTERS

[kjam22]

For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

That coming destruction is the judgement of the Lord when he returns. It has nothing to do with easedropping, giving up liberty for safety... or the FBI. It is a little insulting to a christian when people twist scripture to imply something that it doesn't.

[hobbes1]

Yes, Imagine being a Pro Life advocate, with them in psoession of this legislation......RICO was bad enough...

[Mitchell]

"We think the procedures and government showings required under FISA, if they do not meet the minimum Fourth Amendment warrant standards, certainly come close," the judges wrote in their ruling, which was partially declassified and published.
"We, therefore, believe firmly ... that FISA as amended is constitutional because the surveillances it authorizes are reasonable."

Regardless of one's views on the Patriot Act, this is a peculiar legal ruling. Isn't it required that a law meet the standards of the Constitution, not come close? I would have thought that the court would have mandated an interpretation of the law that would meet what it deemed to be the requirements of the Fourth Amendment.

[Sir Gawain]

Where are the FR moderates on this thread?

{crickets}

[Diamond]

"...a secretive appeals court..."

"In a 56-page ruling..."

These are quotes from the article. Capital Hill Blue is off-base in at least one respect, and it is this: What in the world is a "secretive appeals court" that issues "a 56-page ruling"? What's so secretive about an appellate court?

Cordially,

[Diamond]

oops.

It's REUTERS. Capital Hill Blue just ran it.

I should have known.

Cordially,

[Leto]

I understand this "Secret Court" has been around since 1978, it is nothing new. It was set up to approve wire taps involving national security issues ( an example is wiretapping a Pollard or Robert Hansen) you wouldn't want this stuff where the bad guy's could see it.

So the Clinton's had this.

I think the press is making a big deal about because Ashcroft is using it against the bad guys. If Algore were president, there wouldn't be a peep about this (although we probably would have surendered already).

[Sir Gawain]

"I love democracy. I love the Republic." (applause) "The power you give me I will lay down when the threat is over." (applause)

[KLT]

If I'm in the FBI.... I'd rather ease drop on interesting people instead of the guy who falls asleep in the recliner at 9:30 watching Fox News. OR If I was in the FBI I'd rather read intersting emails instead of a egroup emails about which Large Condenser Studio Microphone has the best sound. But who knows... maybe they'll go after us boring people???

They must learn to control themselves with this new, unappealable law....it gives them sweeping rights over our privacy and lives...

There's no doubt, we need to find the animals that are capable of blowing us up again (and no doubt, they are here)....but that doesn't include us...and all other law abiding Americans.

[MD_Willington_1976]

Here it is all spelled out for you.
http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/ns_frames.html

[taxcontrol]

It is a long tradition within the US court system that prosocution of an offense can not use "fruit from a tainted tree". In short, this means that evidence collected directly or subsequently from an improper source can not be used.

For example, the police conduct an illegal search of a person's house and find a diary. Within the diary is a detailed account of a crime providing details that only the killer could know. Under our current system, the diary would not be admissible due to the fact that the search itself was illegal. What the Patriot Act, and this ruling does, is remove that protection.

I see both sides of this arguement and beleive that a middle ground could be found. For instance, the evidence collected from a wiretap or other source should not be shared. However, if evidence of a crime was found during the monitoring, the intelligence gathering agency could then contact the FBI (or appropriate LEO) and act as an informant. "We have observed the following...." kind of stuff.

This would allow the LEO to then go and obtain a warrent and legally establish their own monitoring. Yes it is a bit of a delay and yes it would be double monitoring, but I'm willing to pay thoses costs in order to have a SOLID legal case and not trample on the rights of the people.

Just a thought

[KLT]

Hmmmmmmm. On this thread.....it's hard to say...but you can pick them out..

[FormerLurker]

I can't understand why they are allowing hundreds of thousands of foreign workers into this country each year if they are so concerned with "Homeland Security". To me, there isn't a whole lot of security when that many LEGAL aliens flood the country each year. And that is IF they are even LEGAL, as there is RAMPANT fraud involved in the work visa system.

Immigration fraud 'out of control' - General Accounting Office slams INS for rampant problems

From the above link:

The General Accounting Office has concluded that immigration fraud is rampant, even helping to open the door for terrorism, and that the Immigration and Naturalization Service has no idea how to get it under control.

In a report released Feb. 15, GAO concluded that immigration benefit fraud is "pervasive and significant and will increase as smugglers and other criminal enterprises use fraud as another means of bringing illegal aliens, including criminal aliens, into the country."

And a bit more info on the subject..

INS, GAO say immigration benefit fraud is pervasive

Perspectives: on U.S. GAO’S report on immigration fraud

[Fiddlstix]

"I love democracy. I love the Republic." (applause) "The power you give me I will lay down when the threat is over." (applause)

You forgot the </sarcasm> tag

[FormerLurker]

One other little problem I see with all of this is that we are not taking steps to guard against any hostile actions by China.

China Eyes U.S. Ports

Pentagon study finds China preparing for war with U.S

[Joe Brower]

The War on Terror looks more like a War on American citizens, or a War on American freedoms.

Yes.

"Human beings will generally exercise power when they can get it, and they will exercise it most undoubtedly in popular governments under pretense of public safety." -- Daniel Webster

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed -- and thus clamorous to be led to safety -- by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." -- H.L. Mencken

We do indeed live in interesting times.

[KLT]

I agree with you FL on every point you've made....while we are busy with Iraq...China is sharpening its claws....

[eleni121]

Only terrorists need fear from this legislation. In this war on terrorism which is really a Jihad on the west - our civil liberties can be used as a weapon against us. This act helps the Government to defend our nation and way of Ulife. I trust Ashcroft, not the ACLU.

[KLT]

I can't understand why they are allowing hundreds of thousands of foreign workers into this country each year if they are so concerned with "Homeland Security". To me, there isn't a whole lot of security when that many LEGAL aliens flood the country each year. And that is IF they are even LEGAL, as there is RAMPANT fraud involved in the work visa system.

YES you are right....this is completely wrong...we are loaded with illegals and foreigners with criminal backgrounds...remember the Clintooon/Gore Citizenship USA Program....What a SCAM!