BURNING THE CONSTITUTION: SECRET COURT OKS SPYING ON AMERICANS

CAPITOLBLUE.COM ^ | 11-19-02 | REUTERS

[Seruzawa]

The unintended consequences of this act are going to be very painful.

What makes you think that these consequences are unintended? These guys know exactly what they are doing.

Who here believes that the Freerepublic itself won't be under severe scruinty? How about when you buy reloading supplies? Or fertilizer? Into the database you go. When HASN'T the govt abused its power?

[Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit]

I will say it plain and simple. I would rather live free even if that increases the risk of terrorists killing me and my family than to live in an increasingly paranoid state that polices its citizens ever more closely.

Sometimes laws like these make our freedoms seem very fragile. They are not, unless people voluntarily give them up. The 2nd Amendment gives you the means to protect all your other rights as a last resort against a tyrant.

Once again, if we go gently into that goodnight and let our freedoms erode slowly and complacently, or even promoting that erosion, than we have lost and the terrorists have won.

In defending the 2nd amendmant Ashcroft has promoted the "just enforce the laws already on the books" argument. This should be the case in defending our other freedoms as well.

[556x45]

Who is in power is a peripheral issue. It doesnt really matter. What does matter is our govt is disobeying the ground rules and imposing unjust ones on us. In effect the govt is pretending to be god and dispensing/denying freedoms. I agree w/ the poster who said passage will yeild unintened consequences. As far abuse goes Dems and Republicans are equal opportunity abusers - there's little difference. Anyone remember Project Meggido? The FBI is still working from this playbook even today.

[AAABEST]

I need input...help me out here guys

It's an Orwellian, anti-freedom and un-American POS.

Our representatives in Washington didn't even give us the courtesy of reading the f***ing thing before signing us up for it.

It should be flushed into the cesspool of history ASAP.

[verity]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

The deceased Ben Franklin certainly had no concept of WMD. Thus 'a little temporary Safety' is not applicable!

[verity]

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than those attending too small a degree of it. "

The threat of WMD cannot be considered an "inconvenience"!

[AAABEST]

Yet, how are we supposed to deal with those who would use our freedoms against us as a means to destroy us??

We're in the process of creating mutli-gazillion dollar bureaucracies, an "Office of Information Awareness" (gotta love that one), giving the Feds license to spy on anyone at any time anywhere and going through all of our private effects at will.

It's a damn joke. The War on Terror looks more like a War on American citizens, or a War on American freedoms. While we're busy confiscating our citizens money and freedoms the terrorists come and go as they please.

[FreeTally]

The deceased Ben Franklin certainly had no concept of WMD. Thus 'a little temporary Safety' is not applicable!

Maybe we should have thought of that before we helped the rest of the world develope WMD's.

[steve50]

It should be flushed into the cesspool of history ASAP.

Along with the politicans who support it,imo. Re-electing people who vote for this kind of thing only encourages them

[DAnconia55]

What? No boot licking, butt kissing Republican has shown up to defend this yet?

No pom-poms for fascism on this thread yet?

Someone summon the usual suspects.

[A. Pole]

This war is likely to last for a generation, if not longer.

It will never end. Same way as war on crime or poverty cannot ever end.

[verity]

Maybe we should have thought of that before we helped the rest of the world develope WMD's

How is this proposition relevant to the discussion!

[meenie]

Does anyone believe that our intelligence agencies that cannot connect the dots with the information they have now can become more effective with tons of new data? We are being exposed to the idea that more government is better government by our "conservative" leaders. How did we ever keep the enemy out during WW II without all these wonderful laws being enacted now?

[hobbes1]

I agree w/ the poster who said passage will yeild unintened consequences

Then you agree with me. If you read my post that was my point.

As far as Government playing by the rules, thats an ideological rather than a practical point. It will take a hundred years, and 300 million pissed off people to undue the abuses of government legislation that is unconstitutional on its face.

from a practical standpoint, the two areas the government rightly gets the most leeway in are Common Defence, and General Welfare, and having people on our shores (how they got here is a separate issue, that also eeds to be addressed) that wish to do us ill, dictates that measures be taken, that having been said, the nature of FISA being so secretive, we are currently unable to even comment on it intelligently at any real level, because we have no working knowledge.Not a comforting postion.

[DoctorMichael]

None of this would be necessary if they would enforce the immigration laws already on the books in the US.

Allowing people into this country who hate the US, are not grateful for the privilege of being here, and hold contempt towards US institutions and way of life is the height of stupidity by our government.

[steve50]

Like the cold war. When the war on terror ends, I'm sure we'll have the next threat to our 'freedoms' lined up. I just wonder what damn freedoms will be left to protect.

[A. Pole]

Trust does not enter the equation because of the check-and-balances provided by the founders.

Monarchy is based on trust (you can have family the nation trusts/likes like Bushes or Clintons permanently in power). Republic is based on suspicion.

[aculeus]

The problem with this is that when the Terrorists are gone, we'll still be living here and they won't revoke this law once they've gotten their hands on it.

Right! That's why we still have WWII food rationing, shoe rationing, gas rationing, price controls, wage controls, excess profit taxes, the draft and FDR as President.

Time to grow up, kiddies. The terrorists, not the government, is trying to kill us by the thousands.

[AAABEST]

The threat of WMD cannot be considered an "inconvenience"!

The deceased Ben Franklin certainly had no concept of WMD.

Put on a lead suit and crawl under your bed then. The concept of WMD is an effen boogieman, designed to frighten the weak minded. We've had the threat of WMD for 50 years during the entire cold war, China is pointing them at us now. We have all species of Chinese agents walking around here at will.

Are we supposed to be ruled by fear and turn our free nation upside down as long as there are WMDs in existence? Then consider your free country a thing of the past, because they'll always be with us, like fire.

Why is nobody is nobody in government or this adiminstration talking about the simple solution here? Which is to close our borders and look up the ass of any person that enters who even remotely fits the profile of someone who would damage America.

Instead, we have an abject, arrogant and unexplainable refusal to offer real protection of America by getting control of who comes in and out of this country, as mandated by law.

Until this is done the entire WOT is nothing but a joke.

[hobbes1]

Trust does not enter the equation because of the check-and-balances provided by the founders.

Really? You trusting in the courts ? Ask any state about the way Federal matching Hiway funds are troutinely used as blackmail to promote implementation of federal polices at the state level that have ZERO to do with interstate commerce. Thats just one example. A helpful rereading of James Madisons letter to congress on vetoeing the roads and canal bill, considered against todays backdrop, should be sufficient to make my point.