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Boy Scouts to Atheist: Accept A God or Get Out
CNSNEWS.com ^ | 10/30/02 | Michael L. Betsch

Posted on 10/30/2002 3:39:31 AM PST by kattracks

(CNSNews.com) - The assistant Scoutmaster of a Pacific Northwest Boy Scout troop is currently faced with the decision of professing his belief in a "supreme being" or facing banishment from the Boy Scouts of America (BSA). However, 19-year-old Darrel Lambert said he's been an atheist since the ninth grade and he's sticking to his convictions.

Lambert's track record with the Seattle-based Troop 1531 is impressive. Throughout his 10-year scouting career he earned 37 merit badges to achieve the rank of Eagle Scout; served as a quartermaster and three-time senior patrol leader; and has dedicated himself to more than 1,000 hours of community service.

But Lambert is also passionate in his rejection of the existence of any supreme being, even though the BSA's regional Chief Seattle Council informed him that expressing a reverence for Mother Earth would be an acceptable form of worship.

Although Lambert admitted to his scout troop's review board that, for years, he had intentionally neglected to demonstrate the principles of faith and reverence to God contained within the Scout Oath and Law, he was awarded the BSA's highest honor last year - Eagle Scout. Coincidentally, his mom is the Scoutmaster of that troop.

Mark Hunter, spokesman for the BSA's regional Chief Seattle Council, said he could not comment or speculate whether Trish Lambert influenced members of the Eagle Scout review board that approved her son's Eagle Scout application, which mandates all applicants must: "Demonstrate that you live by the principles of the Scout Oath and Law in your daily life."

Ironically, Lambert addressed parents Monday night in the basement of a chapel at a retirement home, the Seattle Times reported. He urged those in attendance to look beyond the issue of his atheism and support his proven dedication to the Boy Scouts.

"I think the only power higher than myself is the power of all of us combined," Lambert said.

Additionally, Lambert said he wants to see the 92-year-old BSA repeal its national membership requirements, which includes on its application a Declaration of Religious Principle. He proposed that individual troops be given the right to devise the standards by which they extend their membership to Scouts and adult leaders.

Hunter said Lambert would be permitted to continue his leadership role and interact with members of Troop 1531 while he takes some time to "search out his feelings on this."

"If they're truly what they are," Hunter said, "his membership will be terminated."

Atheism rejected in court

A similar battle erupted in 1991 when twins, Michael and William Randall, refused to recite the Boy Scout Oath's reference to God and faced expulsion from the Orange County, Calif., Boy Scouts Council, said BSA spokesman Gregg Shields.

"At the time, they were eight-years-old ... and they said they were agnostics," Shields noted. Merriam-Webster's Dictionary defines an agnostic as "a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable."

The Randall twins' father, an attorney, argued a successful seven-year case in an Orange County district court only to have it overturned by the Calif. State Supreme Court in 1998.

Shields said the twins fulfilled all of the requirements to become Eagle Scouts, but since the Calif. Supreme Court ruled that the BSA could legally refuse to accept them as members, they were never awarded with the BSA's highest honor.

Teenage rebellion normal

"We recognize that in your early teenage years you go through a formative period where you question and you prod beliefs and you think about and you explore ideas," Shields said. "That's natural and to be expected."

But Shields said Lambert is now an adult who has chosen to lead a group that requires its young members and adult leaders to believe in a supreme being. He stressed that the organization places a high importance on the spiritual development of scouts to recognize a being greater than themselves.

"We expect an adult has the ability to make their own mind up about a belief," Shields said. "If one doesn't agree with the Boy Scout belief system, then perhaps boy scouting is not for that person."

E-mail a news tip to Michael L. Betsch.

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TOPICS: Culture/Society; Front Page News; News/Current Events; US: Washington
KEYWORDS: athiest; bsa; bsalist; god; scouts
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To: punster
LOL!!! Thanks.
81 posted on 10/31/2002 10:42:12 AM PST by Zon
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To: Stone Mountain; Prodigal Son
Yes, I think agnosticism is a much better excuse for the ultimate sin - disbelief. It's also the lazy man's religion.
82 posted on 10/31/2002 11:32:28 AM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: kattracks
Additionally, Lambert said he wants to see the 92-year-old BSA repeal its national membership requirements, which includes on its application a Declaration of Religious Principle. He proposed that individual troops be given the right to devise the standards by which they extend their membership to Scouts and adult leaders.

How about you just form your own group with the standards you desire, rather than attempt to destroy an institution that has benefitted young males for 92 years?

If it ain't broke, don't fix it....

83 posted on 10/31/2002 11:43:35 AM PST by Shethink13
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To: anniegetyourgun
the ultimate sin - disbelief.

Really? Why is disbelief worse than other sins?
84 posted on 10/31/2002 11:48:07 AM PST by Stone Mountain
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To: WorkingClassFilth
By ignoring the fixed and inseparable gulf of sexual identity from the role of Scoutmaster, you contribute to the direct dilution and perversion of the meaning of 'Boy Scouts.' Since Baden Powell is not here to illuminate the errors of your ill-conceived thought, I'll direct you to the body of traditional scouting literature.

Wasn't Baden Powell himself gay?
85 posted on 10/31/2002 11:51:17 AM PST by Stone Mountain
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To: stuartcr
"What makes your faith, my faith, a Muslims faith, a Catholics faith, a Jews faith, a Hindus faith, anyones faith, any more correct than the others"

Frankly, based on what you've been saying, it doesn't sound like you have much faith at all. Just a sort of 'oh, that sounds nice, I'll pretend to believe that' kind of thing. Faith means being convinced and convicted that something is correct. If you aren't convinced and convicted, then you don't have faith.

86 posted on 10/31/2002 11:56:47 AM PST by MEGoody
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To: anniegetyourgun
Actually, a betting man would consider Pascal's Wager and bet on Christianity.

Why not bet on Islam?
87 posted on 10/31/2002 12:00:15 PM PST by BikerNYC
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To: anniegetyourgun
Hmmm. I fail to see how agnosticism is a religion.

the ultimate sin - disbelief

So you're saying if I don't say "There is no God but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet" I am a sinner?

88 posted on 10/31/2002 12:11:21 PM PST by Prodigal Son
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To: yendu bwam
>>It does seem odd that the Boy Scouts would require a
>>generalized belief in a higher being. What do they do
>>about Buddhists, who don't believe in a higher being.
>>Bhudism is more of a philosophy than a religion anyhow.

>It's not odd. The Boy Scouts in general believe that
>religion (in general) and the belief in a higher being and
>in God-given morality that (in general) go with such are
>beneficial and important to young men.

I, for one, think it is quite odd that an organization which is not specifically religious and for which the main purpose has nothing to do with religion would require this amorphous non-specific belief in any higher being as a condition of membership.

Do the Scouts leadership honestly think that belief in some/any higher power is the same thing as morality? The variations between what counts as "God-given morality" among the worlds many religions is enormous.

And I still don't understand what they do about Buddhist. Is their requirement that Scouts must believe in a single monotheistic higher power, or would a basket of various Hindi Gods suffice?

If the Scouts as an organization are trying to impart ethics then IMHO it would make more sense for them to teach the kids ethics, which mind you, does not require belief in any of the various purported higher beings. Substituting any generic belief in a higher being as a proxy for a real moral or ethical code is what I find perplexing.

But don't get me wrong. The Scouts are a private organization...they can do whatever the heck they want however they want to as far as I'm concerned (as long as the leave me alone, which includes not taxing me).

89 posted on 10/31/2002 12:17:31 PM PST by jas3
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To: Stone Mountain
That one is too obvious, SM....to reject God and His provision for salvation is the final stop and unpardonable. God will and does forgive all other sins when He is sought in this life.

I think I'll be shakin' the dust off my sandals now....

90 posted on 10/31/2002 12:51:25 PM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: Prodigal Son
Allah is not the God of scripture (which you have rejected anyway), and Mohammed is dead. Christ is risen and is alive. Those who follow the god of Islam are serving a lie and the one who is behind that lie.
91 posted on 10/31/2002 12:57:22 PM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: BikerNYC
Because it's a lie.
92 posted on 10/31/2002 12:57:54 PM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: MEGoody
I have faith that there is one God, why do I need more?
93 posted on 10/31/2002 12:59:25 PM PST by stuartcr
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To: RonF; WorkingClassFilth
Speaking from experience in my Council, this kid's Troop got a female Scoutmaster probably because none of the fathers in the Troop would take the job.

Exactly.

I'm about to become the Assistant Scoutmaster in our Troop because the Troop can't find another father who will take the job.

My medical practice takes up quite a bit of my time leaving me with little free time and sometimes pretty burned out at the end of the day. I volunteered on all the Troop campouts last year. However, becoming an Assistant Scoutmaster that will set me up to become Scoutmaster when the current Scoutmaster moves on to Venture when his son does is something that I feel will stretch me quite thin.

I wish some other Dad would step up and volunteer but not a single one has. That leaves me. My wife will also be an Assistant Scoutmaster for those nights that, when the Troop meeeting starts at 7:30 PM, I'm still at the Hospital.

One of my cowokers is the female Scoutmaster of a Troop in a community in the south side of the County. In that community, not a single father has volunteered.

94 posted on 10/31/2002 1:24:07 PM PST by Polybius
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To: anniegetyourgun
But Pascal's Wager applies to Islam just as much as it does to Christianity.
95 posted on 10/31/2002 1:31:23 PM PST by BikerNYC
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To: Polybius
How many Scouts in your Troop? How many fathers?
96 posted on 10/31/2002 1:40:44 PM PST by RonF
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To: jas3; All
I disagree with the scouts position. First of all, I would not have a problem with the scouts if they were to say, in order to be a member of our organisation you must believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins nor would I have a problem with their saying, you must believe that "there is no God but Allah and Muhammed is his prophet". Both would be protected by freedom of religious association. What they are doing however is to say you can believe in any religion you want except atheism. It is no different from saying, you can belong to any religion you want so long as you are not a Christian.

What the scouts are doing is also dishonest and un-Christian. There is no scriptural basis in any monotheistic faith for saying that Idolatry is preferable to Unbelief. By saying that people must believe in a "higher power" but that it does not matter which god they worship, the scouts are saying that people should pray to false gods. If someone does not know God or is unsure of God's existance, is not the right thing to be an athiest until convinced otherwise rather than to bow to an idol just to get along? The reason that people think the scouts position is reasonable, is that it support spirituality and ecumenicalism which are both popular and politically correct. Spirituality says that it is preferable to believe in the supernatural rather than only believing in the natural world. Ecumenicalism says that all religions are at least partly true. The problem is that genuine religious faith usually involves a belief that a specific religion is the one true faith while a purely objective scientific position requires proof before believing in anything.

During the Roman Empire there was a form of religious tolerance in which you could worship any pagan god you chose so long as you accepted that the Roman Emperor was a God. This worked well for polytheists because the Roman state would not object to their household god being added to the approved pantheon of gods and it was no big deal to make an offering to the Roman Emperor. It did create a problem for Jews and Christians who believed that worshipping anyone other than the one God was a mortal sin. When they refused to pray to the emperor, they were persecuted and attained martyrdom.

Even if they are legally within their rights, is it reasonable for the scouts to single out one religious position for exclusion while permitting all others?

97 posted on 10/31/2002 1:41:37 PM PST by ganesha
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To: anniegetyourgun
(which you have rejected anyway)

LOL! I have been baptised in a Baptist Church.

From the non-believer's point of view though, why should he choose Christianity over Judaism or Islam or Hinduism for example? From the non-believer's viewpoint they are all making claims that can't be readily verified. Why shouldn't he be wary? Particularly when some of these religions state that something exceedingly nasty will happen to you if you don't accept it? You've got the Islamics saying the infidel should be killed, you've got Christians saying he will be cast into a lake of fire. Presumedly the Mulsims believe in some form of perdition as well. From the non-believer's viewpoint- he's screwed no matter what. If chooses to become a Christian, he'll go to the Muslim hell after they have cut his throat. If he opts for Islam- he'll get bombed by the US and then go to the Christian Hell.

This is one reason I don't like to discuss religion. Everybody is deadly certain their point of view is the only correct one and many are even willing to kill over it. It's just one more thing for humans to fight each other about.

98 posted on 10/31/2002 1:41:49 PM PST by Prodigal Son
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To: jas3
Hindus and other polytheists are welcome to join the BSA.

An outwardly satisfactory ethical system can be constructed based purely on human reason. The BSA essentially subscribes to the belief (thanks to James West) that young people should be taught that human reason alone cannot be trusted to come up with an ethical system; divine inspriration is also needed. Whether there's one, many, or no specific incorporated deity behind this is not material, apparently as far as the BSA is concerned. Neither is any specific organized religion.
99 posted on 10/31/2002 1:44:27 PM PST by RonF
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To: ganesha
What they are doing however is to say you can believe in any religion you want except atheism. It is no different from saying, you can belong to any religion you want so long as you are not a Christian.

Atheism is not a religion.

One major difference is that an atheist believes that human reason alone suffices to create and resolve an ethical system, whereas all the various religions say that there is a power beyond human reason that human reason must obey and use in order to create and resolve an ethical system.

100 posted on 10/31/2002 1:48:56 PM PST by RonF
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