Sniper's Rifle: AK-74?

MS-NBC (Brian Williams) | 10/15/02 | Self

[MikeJ]

I was flipping channels past MS-NBC news tonight, and I heard Brian Williams report that the Maryland sniper is believed to be using an AK-74. He mentioned that they even asked the police if it was OK to report this, and that the police gave them the go-ahead.

I have no idea how they would determine this - does a '74 leave distinctive marks on the brass? I recall that some AK-style rifles are available in .223, but aren't most of the '74s chambered for that 22 caliber Russian round?

Seems like an odd choice for a sniper weapon, and odder still that the shooter would limit himself to single shots. If it is true, it might add some more weight to the theory of our sniper having middle eastern origins.

[Shaka]

SB,
Again...the SAR-3 variant shoots the .223 round. The SAME round that we use in our AR-15's. The more abundant .223 round in the U.S. has made this gun a popular one for AK shooters...besides it's easier on the shoulder than a 7.62. The Romanian SAR's can be bought for about $300-$350 and are readily available here. The shooter is probably using this very gun. I used to have a "blonde" furniture Romanian 7.62...got an Egyptian and a Bulgarian now...nice guns. But, I would'nt choose them as sniper guns. Maybe SHTF because you shoot them from the mud and dirt but not sniping.

[SteveH]

If this is true the info should have been released as soon as it was known by the authorities. How many Violence Policy Center and HCI press releases have their been since last week condemning innocent gun owners and their .223 rifles, which are only now revealed not to be the sniper's weapon?

...sorry but the investigation seems to have elements of Keystone in it in my opinion (and that is being charitable)...

[SEAL6]

Everybody makes such a big deal about this guy firing at 100m which means he isn't such a hot shot at all. Have you ever looked around a typical urban area? It is almost imposible to get a line-of-sight beyond that distance. Pluse the fact that the .223 kill capability drops of significantly beyond 200m.

For get the spelling. Just deal with it.

[hoosierskypilot]

"...odd that a .223 is the chosen round.."

It's very cheap, right now. Like, 10 cents a round for Wolf ammo. You remember Wolf, don't you? That's the ammo the Russians were importing into America in the green military boxes. Then Clinton said military ammo was bad and outlawed it. So the Russians, always ready to take advantage of an ignorant dimocrat, changed the box, put a wolf on the front, and called it hunting ammo. Clinton said that was fine. Exact same ammo, though.

[wattsup]

The Russians developed this gun to shoot the same ammo as the M-16. But the M-16 can't shoot the ammo of the AK-74. Neat trick huh

[Pushi]

I agree with you.

[agrandis]

Good! I know I'm mostly preaching to the choir, here, but I was thinking, I myself need to spend some time with my guns. It's expensive, and I am short on time, but I see it as one of my duties in life.

Remember this, too - even if today the government is your friend (my time in AR during Clinton made me realize that ain't true, but, for the sake of argument...) tomorrow, you may need to fight it off. If a country has to have gun laws of any sort, it isn't what the United states was meant to be.

[HP8753]

If you have a rifle and land or a nearby range, practice, and teach your boys, if you have any.
Lets not be sexist,My daughters are quite proficient with firearms and have made more than a few guys take notice at the rifle range.

[rlwinston]

I thought I read someware when the 5.56 round was accepted into NATO use a different bullet and rifling was used because:
1-It was able to penetrate a typical Helmet
2-It was a more "Humane bullet" because it did not cause
as nasty a wound and the US version

Any body read this?

[El Gato]

According to this site, the 5.45x39 uses a 53 grain bullet, just about the same as the older M193 5.56X45 NATO rounds (55 gr). Velocity is about the same too. 5.45 is available in hollow point as well as FMJ, the latter of which is shown above. Several different loading can be found with various bullet weights, but all of nearly the same weight (50-57 grains from one source) and velocity.

[The KG9 Kid]

"... The Russians developed this gun to shoot the same ammo as the M-16. But the M-16 can't shoot the ammo of the AK-74."

That's an old urban legend that goes back even a generation before in firearms.

It's just not so. :)

[El Gato]

The Russians developed this gun to shoot the same ammo as the M-16. But the M-16 can't shoot the ammo of the AK-74. Neat trick huh

Hardly, the 5.56X45 is (45 mm long) longer than the 5.45X39 (39mm long) The 5.45 has a fatter case, being derived from the 7.62x39, and only requiring a different magazine and barrel (plus maybe some tuning of the gas system and springs) to be changed (in design) when going from the -47 series to the -74 series. The bolt face and extractor didn't need to be changed, since the rear end of the two catridges (7.62 and 5.45) are the same size and shape.

A 5.56 wouldn't fill the hole in the 5.45 chamber, side to side that is, but it would jam up (or slam fire) because of the excess length of the loaded round.

This is an old myth that's been around for ages.

[SBprone]

You may be thinking of the hype that surrounded the second generation of 5.56mm ammo and weapon systems back in the 1980s. The original AR15 and M16 rifles had a very slow barrel twist, something like 1 turn in 14". This wasn't enough to stabilize the 55gr bullet in the M193 ammo and so the rifle initially got a reputation for making very nasty wounds and not having good penetration, both characteristics of a bullet that has gone off axis before reaching its target. I think this was subsequently corrected by changing the barrel twist to 1X12".

Anyway, when it was time to give the rifle and cartridge a makeover it was decided that more penetration was needed. The engineering solution was to use a heavier bullet and the heavier bullet required a faster twist to stabilize it. The new ball cartridge, US M855 is about 62 or 63 gr but because the new tracer ammo was to be about 10 grains heavier than the ball it was decided to give the new generation of M16s (M16A1) a radical 1X7" twist.

1X7" has turned out to be too fast and I think they may have backed it off some but I'm not sure. Anyway when the M855 ball ammo is spun at 1X7" it has a tendency to fragment from sheer centripetal force. Just as the understabilized bullet got a reputation as a meatchopper, so did the new overstabilized bullet get a reputation for exploding inside the human body. It does penetrate much more than the old system however, due to the greater stability and also a steel penetrator insert that is seated in the front of the bullet just under the jacket. Punching holes in NATO helmets at some distance (500 meters?) was indeed part of the test protocol for acceptance of the new cartridge.

When you consider that American hunters of little whitetail deer consider the .223 to be inhumane it's pretty clear what the true purpose of the .22 services cartridges is: to inflict nasty wounds.

[SBprone]

About the NATO thing:

In the 1970s NATO saw that .22 service rifles were the coming thing and they wanted to make the change from 7.62 but they didn't like the US M193 cartridge, so it was NATO that came up with a bunch of acceptance standards like the helmet test. When they were done with their testing and selection they wound up with SS109 which is functionally identical to US M855. The "makeover" of the US rifle system was really in response to NATO adopting an improved version of the 5.56mm system and it should be no surprise that the new US cartridge is functionally identical to the NATO SS109. I think it was NATO that insisted on the radical 1X7" twist for stabilizing tracer rounds and of course our people went along with that, much to their later chagrin.

[patriciaruth]

Mark Furman on Fox News mentioned that the gun was reported to be a ChiCom version of the AK-74 in .223.

I heard that also.

This and the reports that the sniper may be darker skinned, Hispanic or Middle Eastern but not African, are making me glad that the spy plane is joining the hunt.

Can anyone comment on the capabilities of the spy plane that is being deployed in the search?

[patriciaruth]

Ping.

[Rockpile]

Just to do a little speculating......

Do you think that if an AK-74 came in to the US in a diplomatic pouch that some rifle grenades could have been included?

Also, whatever the rifle used I wonder if it still has serial numbers.

[The Other Harry]

Thats why I'm referring to the SAR-3 variant...it is available here in the U.S. and I'm thinking this Muslim sympathizer is familiar with it and probably bought one in the States. Then outfitted it for sniping "trigger, scope and mount". But, his training definitely comes from the East of us. And more than likely it is a legal semi that was purhased from anywhere in the country...legally.

He's a Muslim "sleeper" ,who found a way to make himself relevant in the Jihad..that is why he's not claiming reponsibility or plastering threats everywhere...he's on a mission for Allah. At least that is my theory...and he is using his training and tools of the trade.

I'm with you on this.

The shooter could fire more accurately and be less conspicuous with some other weapon. It would also be easier to acquire.

He has been very rational so far. Why stop here?

[TERMINATTOR]

AK-102, 5.56X45 NATO (.223)- folding stock The AK-101 has a longer barrel

[TERMINATTOR]

AK-102 folded. It'd be easy for an *INROP to slip across the Mexico US border with this under their shirt.

*Islam's Not a Religion Of Peace