Navy looking into issues surrounding 'overboards'

Honolulu Advertiser ^ | Sunday, October 13, 2002 | William Cole

[Vidalia]

The Navy said four sailors on the Pearl Harbor-based cruiser Port Royal jumped overboard during a nine-month span, an unusually high number that the ship's command finds hard to explain.

"I can't give you an explanation because I don't know what goes on in the minds of every one of those sailors on a daily basis," said Lt. Cmdr. Brian Fort, executive officer of the Port Royal. "I can tell you that for each one of them, there were some issues that those sailors were working through in their lives."

[Vidalia]

Hello, Boyz and Gurlz, the Real Navy is not what is portrayed by the newest pop commercials or the movie, "McHales Navy", is it?

maybe if the NEA unionized sex oriented schools would teach something of history, then these idiot kids wouldn't be so "depressed" after the Ritalin wears off...

[battlegearboat]

And they give them honorable discharges?
Not when I was in.
Fish them out, slam 'em in the Brig, give 'em a General Court Martial (no Captain's Mast) and send them back over the side via the plank (or better yet, keel haul 'em).
We are at war and they did desert.

[Consort]

"I ate the strawberries -- so what?"

[tubebender]

Fish them out, slam 'em in the Brig, give 'em a General Court Martial

Now Now Now...we can't do that after all we didn't flunk these chillun when their grades bottomed in K-12.

[KeyWest]

Just keep steaming.

[Criminal Number 18F]

It's possible that what we have here is one very screwed-up kid and a bunch of copycats.

It's also possible that we have some pretty ate-up leadership on that boat. The Navy has a couple hundred ships and most of the crews are not swan-diving into Davy Jones's Locker. But the ground rules under which the service publicised this make it impossible to evaluate the situation. (One hand-picked sailor talking by phone to the presstitute, while an officer sat in the room -- come on).

I have served my time in the Army, but in a position where I have gotten to see all the services in action and work with them closely. My own observation is that in the Navy, officer-enlisted relations remain feudal in nature and teamwork routinely goes unappreciated and unrewarded. I felt pity for the poor guys I saw on Navy ships; the accommodations and mutual respect (or lack of same) reminded me of the boat scenes in Ben Hur.

I would never recommend the Navy to any young man today. If he wants to be treated like a human being, the Air Force is the place to be. If he wants to be part of something special, the Marines. Unless one qualifies for special operations (paging PFC Tillman!) or something else out of the mainstream, the Army only makes sense as a three or four year experiment. Everything wrong with Special Forces is something that is wrong with the Army as a whole, but most things that are wrong about the Army are alright in SF. I have a friend who is a retired SEAL officer and he says they felt the same way (but were careful not to express it around boat drivers).

Anyway, my 2¢. I don't think that these suicidal (?) kids are alright but I don't think that their chain of command is blameless in this, and the Navy seems to have pulled out the PR stops to blacken the names of the kids and excuse the skipper.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[UCANSEE2]

There is another possibility that is not being discussed in this article.

That scenario is that the 'suicides' may be forced. In other words, someone gave somebody a little push.

Not only is there competition for rank, there are different clique groups on a ship. Many of these sailors are still not mature. They come from a high school or no school/hood environment where the toughest dominated the group. The weakest was routed (or killed). They carry on this attitude.

If someone doesn't like you, on board ship, or you are in somebody's way, then you are a problem easily solved.

One shove, late at night on the deck, and you are gone.
No witnesses, no one will know for several hours you are even gone.

Sure, suicide is very likely, with young men on a ship. If you are out at seak, it is usually very boring. Lack of contact with family, or other humans not stuck in the same environment (onboard at sea) can add to the depression.

But the 'oops, man overboard' shove is almost more likely.

[Criminal Number 18F]

Interesting. Do you think that this situation is made better or worse (or perhaps, not changed) by the Clinton admin's decision to put women on warships?

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[UCANSEE2]

It probably added to the problem, but only slightly.
It added one more reason for shoving someone overboard.
Competition for the female. The likelihood that a sailor would get the heave-ho because of a female sailor would be dependent on the attitude of that particular female.
It would also be slightly enhanced due to the fantasies of the alpha male, even if the female showed no interest in any of the males on board whatsoever.

There is a case that women on board might help to tone down the situation. Rather than spending time/energy dominating all the males, the alpha males time might be spent fantasizing about the females, or actually conversing with them and getting some satisfaction out of the conversation/companionship which could provide an outlet for pent up energy.
The females might exhibit motherly tendencies which might help the males feel calmer.

So, there are pros and cons for having females on the ship.
I do believe that since most of the time the quantity of females is very small, and the ship very large, that the net effect is also very small, and could be a big effect, but only in a localized area (around the female).

Bottom line, I don't think it makes much difference. Sh*t still happens.

[cynicom]

The four jumped. That is a fact. The Navy must accept the blame for the jumps.

Firstly, I would question the acceptance of the four in the first place. Secondly there had to be indications prior to the jumps. No matter what, the Navy has to accept the fact that they did not prevent their enlistment and failed to read that they were unacceptable for duty.

[Thinkin' Gal]

Fort said the ship's retention rates, or crew members who choose to stay in the Navy, are some of the highest in the Pacific Fleet — "between 75 percent and 80 percent on board Port Royal, and Navy-wide is about 60 percent, I believe."

Hmmm, what's behind the numbers? I wonder if they stay in, in order to get away from this command. What I mean is, if a sailor has say, a year or more left on his enlistment [when his tour of duty ends], it's not enough to get [2 or 3 year] orders to a new command. Ergo, it's either stay at a command from hell until they get out of the Navy, or extend a year or two, in order to escape. Maybe things have changed, but that's what I remember happening at a place where I was stationed.

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

My own observation is that in the Navy, officer-enlisted relations remain feudal in nature and teamwork routinely goes unappreciated and unrewarded.

I've been in the Navy - and found that was only true for the shore navy.  The blue water navy was considerably better.