H-1B issues going to court, U.S. WORKERS SAY THEY ARE FEELING BETRAYED

Bigotry? To advocate keeping job stealing foreign servants out of our job market? Surely you're not that simple.

Anyone who really thinks the government should intervene into the market to enhance an ongoing market trend is traditionally thought of as a fascist. Government should not try to out-guess the market.

The government in intervening into the market. With H1B visas.

Are you an American citizen working in this country?

Perhaps you didn't understand at all what I've been saying, perhaps you misunderstood me. On that theory I'll clarify.

I'm saying that it is bigotry on the part of americans to want to set up special rules in the labor market for one part of the labor market, high tech & engineering work. American citizens cannot sell their labor in 6 year blocks of time, the law will not recognize such contracts. If you sign a contract selling your labor in 6 year time slots, then you want to leave after 2 years, the courts will let you leave, so big companies cannot buy american labor in 6 year time slots, but they can buy h1b labor in 6 year time slots. The government itself has put americans at a disadvantage in their own nation's marketplace through this program. About half the people hiring in this market understand that hiring an h1b is not a good deal for their situation. The other half prefer h1b's over americans. Since half the market is gone and since it is an inherently difficult market so many americans, as you said, are finding that this market just doesn't make sense for them. When young americans en masse see they are shafted both by h1b and management that doesn't appreciate their talents and abilities, they will not train themselves for this market. When that happens the goose that laid the golden egg will be killed, and killed both by a government program and by the greed/bigotry of the managers in this market. You said this is a possibility, I said that it was obvious to me that this was a probability and that I knew this years ago.

Many people who grow up in america develop a prejudice where they think that people who study engineering, math, physics and use that disciplined thinking required in this type of work are inferior people because they do that hard work and yet are going to work for managers who will make the real money. Many managers have contempt for the engineering talent, this is a subtle reality IMHO. We didn't develop special labor market rules for that market to sand-bag these people for nothing you know, it is bigotry that drives the whole thing. A large source of the whole problem that has led to h1b is techno-phobia in reality. Many people who've done this type of work over a period of time have concluded these things.

It is president bush who says that if you oppose h1b, then you are a racist. I don't think that. I think the supporters of h1b are the bigots. They want special standards in this one labor market. I'm opposed to h1b because it is unjust to americans, because it is counter-productive in the process of procuring star talent to do this work and because it is bad for the american economy.

Some people above said that there is no market inside of america for doing engineering, building software, maintaining computer systems. They use this prejudice as justification for h1b. They say 'well, it doesn't matter,there's no market foryour labor anyway'. That is a big fat lie.

A lot of people dont' realize how bad h1b is for economy. It diverts about 8 or so billion directly from social security fund to outside the country by giving to the source country's government the money that would normally go to social security. On top of that it reduces wages by one third or so for at least a million people. Econometric studies do not show that to be a positive thing for the domestic economy. Many h1b's send a lot of money home and do so for many years after arriving. h1b's literally live 4 to an apartment and do not support an american family. But americans working that job usually support an entire american household if not more than that. One study said that the loss to tax coffers inside of america due toh1b was 17 billion dollars.

This is a program that harms us as a nation, as a people. And bigoted people justify it by saying that americans who do this type of work can't compete, aren't smart enough, aren't qualified, or there is no market for their labor anyway. There is no objective evidence at all for any of these beliefs. In fact Matloff has disproved it all systematically, if you look at #2 above you'll see link.

I was not attacking you, I was agreeing with your assertion that this might hurt america in long run.

You're either too sensitive, thinking I was attacking you, or you're wrapped up in pc attitudes. Either way, this is how rotten the pc crowd is, look they've got us at each other's throats. The government should not intervene into the labor market to pick winners and losers, every labor market should operate under same rules, we should have no indentured servants, only free labor by american citizens. If we live by these rules that we've prospered with for so long, then we can live together peacefully, happily and prosperously.

Americans have every right to first consideration for a job in their own country whether they have a passport or not. And we'll go demanding, not "crying", to Congress to keep it that way. Because it's our Congress, get it?

We're on the same team, I agree with you, I'm glad. I am american and I do work as programmer.

Americans have every right to first consideration for a job in their own country whether they have a passport or not.

That seems kind of important because the other countries protect their citizens. It's true in almost every field, while the US doesn't protect it's citizens at all, you find Mexico and India and China won't allow Americans to just move over and compete with those people for jobs.

I obviously did misunderstand you. Entirely my fault. My appologies.

Mexico and India and China won't allow Americans to just move over and compete with those people for jobs.

What we're doing seems to be madness, or an agenda of some kind.

Y2K panic is over.

The gravy train is over for techies.The dot com companies went belly up and the world keeps turning.

Welcome back to the real world!

I guess I would feel more compassionate for you if the men and women who are in our military could jack up their wages based on market demand, like the techies did in the last ten years .While the money was good, the Democrats looked like the party party.(not a typo)

Be flexable!Know your marketable skills! Work harder for less income, non-techie workers were told, while the techies garnered (relatively) obscene wages.

Unbridled,unethical,selfserving greed caused much of the economic problems we ALL deal with today.

I have little sympathy for techie whining about H1B workers.At least they are legal.I wonder how many techies paid their maids,poolboys and gardeners over the table?Was it "different" when YOU were making the big bucks?

Choices matter.Character counts.Kharma always prevails.(what goes around-comes around).

I have less problems with H1B hires than I do with techies who price themselves out of the market, and expect sympathy from oh, lets pick an industry, say textiles.

How do you earn a living?

This one is just too sweet. All these people quoted above were the first wave of tech immigrants who displaced American citizens, during the multi-cultural group hugs of the 80's and 90's.

What the article doesn't mention is all the life-long American citizen tech workers who are currently suffering their third or fourth wave of H1B-type of displacement.

Currently, I sell high technology presentation, videoconference, and system integration products including design/installations.I also perform office manager functions of a branch sales office, and act as a receptionist.

I wear many hats and am considered an "essential employee". I am not a boss.I just do the job my employer and I, have MUTUALLY agreed, are my working conditions and scope of employment.I have consciously traded a percentage of my potential monetary compensation for a flexable lifestyle.

I may resign and/or my company may fire me, at any time, for any reason.My employer would not fire me if I am continually productive.I would not resign unless I felt mistreated.(I have done this in the past with previous employers)

My employer buys my skills, a certain amount of my time, and my loyalty, for the duration of my employment. I produce a profit for my employer.The free market works!

What do you do for a living?

sarasmom, you're reading me all wrong. I was complaining about h1b above. But h1b has not taken my job. I also don't fit mold that you describe in your post. I don't want to talk about details of my situation, just to tell you that you are 100% incorrect about me.

But you are in marketing, hmmm. What part of country do you live in?

Have you ever wanted to devote some time and effort to helping someone start a business? Without any guarantee of making any money at all? I did that once. That's how I broke into programming. In that effort I did not make out, I got about $5/hour for my time when it was over. But the guy I helped did get rich from it, I only didn't get paid because he turned out to be a crook.

But I'm not a crook. If you sell the software successfully, then you can increase your income dramatically. Will you do it? If you're interested you can free-mail me. I'll tell you more about it if you are interested.

I have no money. But when you make a sale, then I can pay you commission. Believe me, this is exactly how I got started in programming, I did massive amounts of work for a guy on a part time basis while doing my full-time job. The fellow I helped was as a result enabled to make millions, then I unfortunately only got paid a fraction what we'd agreed on (handshake deal). I paid the price, will you?

Lots of small companies need this software. I built similar software for a company that is a big player in this particular marketplace. They run 25 offices on it. Such companies exist in every major city in america, lots of them. These others need the same software. The software I built on my own time is better than the software I built for this company/client. I can send you a zip file that will let you install a demo version onto your home computer. You can review it. My client is planning on marketing the version I made for them.

Put up or shut up. My weakness is marketing. Software is ready to go. Sky's the limit.