Posted on 09/05/2002 2:06:01 PM PDT by Frank_Discussion
I know someone who is planning on attending one of these "forums", and I'm concerned. From what I can tell, it's a scam wrapped in new age garbage.
I think your initial opinion of it is pretty close to the mark.
I went to the meeting The first thing I noticed is how the people seemed to be dependant on it.
I did some research and didn't like what I found. IMO, it is cult. A secular cult. The members use catchy phrases like "you don't know what you don't know" (which is true.)
I'd stay away.
Here is a anti-landmark link for more info: http://homepage.mac.com/jk8/landmark/
I suggest you look at their site, which is www.landmarkeducation.com. The new version, which I proofed this summer, just went live. There is a lot of information there, and the overwhelming impression I got - and I read every single word that went online - is that the goal of these seminars is to create a self-reliant, honest person who is accountable for their words, actions, and lives. It sounds more conservative than new-agey to me.
I have never gone to a forum, and probably won't. However, there is sufficient information on there to debunk the "It's a cult!" claims. There is no "cult of personality" (unlike, say, the DNC :-) ), and they don't mind if you go to the bathroom (more grins). From what I've read in the materials, there is a commitment to being honest with yourself, and therefore, with others, and to stop using excuses to get through the day.
On a personal note, I can say that out of the many people I have worked with in my 16 years of being in business for myself (as well as the previous 12 years of working as an employee in a variety of fields), every representative of Landmark has been unfailingly honest, clear, and accountable for everything they did and said. I cannot say that many other people with whom I've worked have been as consistently honorable and honest (and that includes paying me not only on time, but early).
I've always believed that you can tell a lot about a person, and a company, by the way they treat the "little people." They have treated me with the utmost respect for my time and talents, and have kept every promise made to me. So, that's my experience.
My gut feeling? I don't believe that a few days spent in honest self-examination can be harmful. Please let me know if I've addressed your concerns accurately, or if you need to contact me through FReepmail, just let me know.
Best...
I just wrote a post right below yours (see above this one) - there are "anti-pages" for pretty much anything you can find, and as we know, forinstance, the antiFreepers can make any charge they wish without substantiation. It's always a good idea to gather information from both sides and make an informed decision. Heck, if I read nothing but the AF pages, I'd think we were all drooling, mouth-breathing, knuckle-dragging, but blow-dried, extremist geeks. (Everybody knows they're over on DU!)
Every organization has its own jargon - I have a low jargon tolerance. We even have it. (ref: Moose, cheese, showers, tinfoil, etc.) It's a verbal shorthand for a more extensive concept.
A scam? The question is, do they get the services they paid for (i.e., a seminar taking place over a few days)? Or do you pay the money, and show up at the hotel, and no one is there except the janitorial staff? If it's the latter, then it's a scam. Every seminar carries value risks - is that sales seminar, that stock trading seminar, that marriage weekend worth the time and money invested?
I do not believe it's a cult.
Best...
This is an important question, and one I would certainly want the answer to before I committed to a program like this.
The other question I find to be equally important and would want answered is "If I find this training is not for me, can I walk out at any time with no negative consequences?" If the answer is yes, then I would say enjoy the training and I hope it helps you. If the answer is no, then that would raise huge red flags with me. For example, in that direction lies scams like Scientology and Heaven's Gate ...
Good questions all - questions like that and critical thinking throughout our lives, like ordering something off the Internet, deciding on a cellphone program, or choosing a dentist for your child, deciding what school your child will attend, voting.
Somewhere on the site is the story of someone in their forum who decided to leave, and they just left. I think there is a prorated refund policy, depending on how much of the seminar you've taken - I don't know.
They're a large business, and the Heaven's Gate realm of things is far away from how they operate. The "janitor sweeping the ballroom floor" scenario is not in their realm - scam artists don't last long in an Internet-enabled world!
Bottom line is, that if someone is considering this, or other, seminar, they should be an informed consumer with our eyes open and our brains functioning. But you already knew that - you're a Freeper! :-)
Best...
True. I'm just biased against the Landmark Forum. People shouldn't be dependant on a secular organization for feeling good. When I saw how emotional some members were at the the meeting, I wondered how these people ever functioned before they discovered Landmark.
>>It's always a good idea to gather information from both sides and make an informed decision.
Well I did. I had a die hard volunteer give me the low down from his perspective. This guy needed to get a life.
>>A scam? The question is, do they get the services they paid for (i.e., a seminar taking place over a few days)?
I said it wasn't a scam. You do get services, ie, "education".
>>I do not believe it's a cult.
It not a cult in the religious sense. It's a "secular" cult if you will.
True. I'm just biased against the Landmark Forum. People shouldn't be dependant on a secular organization for feeling good. When I saw how emotional some members were at the the meeting, I wondered how these people ever functioned before they discovered Landmark.
>>It's always a good idea to gather information from both sides and make an informed decision.
Well I did. I had a die hard volunteer give me the low down from his perspective. This guy needed to get a life.
>>A scam? The question is, do they get the services they paid for (i.e., a seminar taking place over a few days)?
I said it wasn't a scam. You do get services, ie, "education".
>>I do not believe it's a cult.
It not a cult in the religious sense. It's a "secular" cult if you will.
For those of you who think that the Landmark Forum is a scam or a brainwashing session or cult - have any of you actually attended the Landmark Education Forum?
I saw four friends have amazing results from attending the class (these are normal people and the last people in the world who you would expect to go). All of our friends said that they were brainwashed or we all figured that they just needed THERAPY and we had a million other reasons for why this was a scam. Here are a few:
1- if it's so great...why isn't it free and available to everyone?
2- why is it $400? who does the money go to? why pay for it?
3- why is it 3 days for 13-14 hour days? they must deprive you of sleep/food and break you down so that you're easily influenced.
4- this is for vulnerable people with major issues.
5- anything THAT powerful to make my friend act THAT positive and energized on life MUST be a scam or a cult.
6- this is just like scientology or one of those tony robbins tapes or all of those other motivational/spiritual classes out there.
I was very much against the forum for a long time until my friend finally convinced me to at least "check it out". A few days before the forum, other friends (who were against the forum) sent me to a few websites that had articles from people who were VERY against the landmark forum and made it out to be a cult. suprisingly, none of those people actually attended the forum.
I attended the class on a friday morning and noticed that the first day was filled with 90% of the class throwing out many of the arguments mentioned in this blog (on top of a million others) and they were actually angry at the leader. By Sunday, all of the non-believers (including myself) had a different outlook.
Before attending, I was extremely skeptical. Now, all I can say is that it is not wise to judge something you know nothing about. Do not assume that it is what you think it is because you may actually be wrong.
I would check it out first...then write a response based on your experience (not assumptions).
Ask most of the people who have attened the forum if they were skeptical before going in. Then, ask what they think of it afterwards. That should be more helpful than reading something online from someone who has never experienced the forum.
Why waste one's time?
I understand that often the local groups are run differently.
However, why turn to a humanistic program?
Try God -- much better results..
>>Now, all I can say is that it is not wise to judge something you know nothing about.
Even more the better to be reserved. "You don't know what you don't know" works in more way than Landmark realizes.
As with all cults, self help programs, etc, there are universal truths contained in the Landmark Forum. It's how people get hooked -- half truths are more dangerous than outright lies...
No. Did the first two classes about 10 years ago. One of the best things I ever did. Teaches you to be responsible, honest, true to self and true to others, and self-reliant. Boil it down, it is really just about learning, and living, possibility thinking. Yes it cost some money, I think the two 3 day classes cost total of $950, but if you think about it, that really is not a lot for seminar. At work, I have been sent on conferences that cost $950 per day, and get much much less. After I was done, I was perfectly clear that I did not want to do any more, and they left me alone. Because being clear is central to the Forum, when you say no, you have to really say no, otherwise they will take it as a maybe.
(in response to my previous post - above)
Also, I think it's important to let you all know that I had NO CLUE what I was really getting myself into. I didn't know what to expect because NO ONE could completely explain it to me. That's one of the biggest reasons why I was so against it for so long and believed that it was a bunch of B.S.!
All I can say is that this program is for you if you're interested in:
- learning how to live a more satisfied/fullfilling life
- communicating better with the people in your life
- being more real with yourself and others
- being positive and learning how to deal with the problems/issues that happen in your life
- getting out of your "ruts" when you're in them
- understanding who you are
- having better relationships with family/friends/significant other
- being true to yourself
- truly being in the moment and not half assing it
- living a more extraordinary life
there are so many other breakthrough's you have from doing this. if any of you knew me...you'd know that i would NEVER attend something like this normally. it truly takes someone you know/trust to go through it...see their results and go in blindly to check it out. if you think that you can be brainwashed in 3 days or that you truly are vulnerable....you probably shouldn't do this. if you're depressed or have mental problems or on medication....you shouldn't do this either.
after the first day, my buddy called me and said, "hey man...how was it? did you have a bunch of breakthroughs?" i still thought it was ridiculous and told him that i wasn't really feeling it and thought it was a waist of time. i also told him that i would continue just because it was still interesting and i'll see it all the way through before giving him my final feedback on the course. i later realized that friday is really 5% of the forum. saturday is about 35% and sunday is 60%.
i really didn't think that i would be this excited about the forum. it's not like i'm all of a sudden not more responsible or my life is all of a sudden 100 times better or anything like that.
you just have to do the forum to truly get it. it's tough to really explain but i really do not believe that it's a cult, brainwashing session, or money making scam.
i would be VERY interested to know the percentage of people who do the forum and have negative feedback. if you attended a class and see everyone afterwards, you would assume that the negative feedback is VERY little.
>>Teaches you to be responsible, honest, true to self and true to others, and self-reliant.
So does the boy scouts, amongst many other God fearing organizations.
>>Boil it down, it is really just about learning, and living, possibility thinking.
Yea right. I know people who belong to the Forum. Many are super dedicated to it to the point of putting it before their family.
Why are you online, looking at a blog about the Landmark Forum, trying to convince others that the Landmark Forum is a bad thing...when you've never even been? Doesn't seem to have much logic.
That's almost like seeing a large group of people cheering because their favorite football team just won the Superbowl....then you telling them that their team cheated when you never even really saw the game.
- No one is replacing God with the Landmark Forum (that's not what it's about). If someone IS replacing GOD with the forum...that's their own deal/choice. I can assure you that the forum is not about that and most people do not do that - especially if they are religious.
- If people are putting the forum above their family...that's their own deal too. Most people who do the course become closer to their family. The forum is not about putting the Forum above your family. That's a little silly to think it does (unless of course you have no clue what you're really talking about and you're just trying to convince yourself of something false).
>>Why are you online, looking at a blog about the Landmark Forum, trying to convince others that the Landmark Forum is a bad thing...when you've never even been? Doesn't seem to have much logic.
You presume I haven't been...
>>That's almost like seeing a large group of people cheering because their favorite football team just won the Superbowl....then you telling them that their team cheated when you never even really saw the game.
That example doesn't fit here.
>>The forum is not about putting the Forum above your family. That's a little silly to think it does (unless of course you have no clue what you're really talking about and you're just trying to convince yourself of something false).
I did not say the forum put itself above family, I said people have done this..
Stop presuming about "what you don't know" concerning me or what I've said. Unlike Landmark, there isn't alot published about myself...
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