A Reflection on Apostasy

The Diocese Report/DRBlog ^ | Wednesday, August 14, 2002 | Brian Mershon

[berned]

I was talking about the REAL motives, pal ;-)

So am I, pal.

[berned]

Care to reply to the specifics of post # 159?

[exmarine]

Let me ask you this. Yes, that power is from the Holy Spirit. There is no power in a door, and walking through a door triggers nothing. Prayer is the vehicle thru which power is loosed.

[exmarine]

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.

This is baloney. If one doesn't know Christ, then one has to be sinless. One either must lead a perfect life according to the law, or one must be saved thru faith in Christ. Nowhere in scripture is another plan outlined. Grace only comes through Christ - no other plan available. This is more apostasy. "Strive by their deeds..." - here we go again with earning salvation! Let me ask you something: Is there such a thing as a person who has not broken the 10 commandments? Question #2: Can sin be forgiven other than thru the blood of Christ? Question 3: Can a perfectly just an Holy God NOT punish unwashed sin? The pygmies in Africa who do not know Christ are not going to hell for not hearing the gospel, they are going for breaking God's laws! Period. Nevertheless, everyone will get a fair deal.

[exmarine]

If that's all you're saying, no problem.

It's a big problem for Most and for all theistic evolutionists.

[heyheyhey]

This is baloney.

Maybe not. Let's see...
For all men were by nature foolish who were in ignorance of God, and who from the good things seen did not succeed in knowing HIM WHO IS, and from studying the works did not discern the Artisan.
But either fire, or wind, or the swift air, or the circuit of the stars, or the mighty water, or the luminaries of heaven, the governors of the world, they considered gods. Now if out of joy in their beauty they thought them gods, let them know how far more excellent is the Lord than these; for the original Source of beauty fashioned them. Or if they were struck by their might and energy, let them from these things realize how much more powerful is He who made them.
For from the greatness and the beauty of created things their original Author, by analogy, is seen. But yet, for these the blame is less; For they indeed have gone astray perhaps, though they seek God and wish to find Him. For they search busily among His works, but are distracted by what they see, because the things seen are fair. But again, not even these are pardonable. For if they so far succeeded in knowledge that they could speculate about the world, how did they not more quickly find its LORD?

From the Book of Wisdom 13, 1-9

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

Berned, your back.

It has been a long time since we last got into a beautiful verbal sparing argument. How have you bee? Hope well.

Just saying hello to my Brother in Christ (though different churches) and sending my regards.

God Bless

[StAthanasiustheGreat]

You might want to check your information before posting. The Roman Catholic Church does not have a Doctrine of Works, it is a Doctrine of Faith AND Works. This reasoning stems from the letter of James:

"What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,' but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, 'You have faith and I have works.' Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. Do you want proof, you ignoramus (not making a comment, promise), that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the Altar? You see faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham belived God and it was credited to hhim as righteousness,' and he was called 'the friend of God.' See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. . . For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead " James 3:14-26

There in essence is the Roman Catholic Stance that Works are necessary to truly show Faith, for what good is saying something when one does not act upon it. They work almost in concert with one another, each one vitally important, faith of course is first, but by works, one's faith is demonstrated, and one does as He wants us to do.

[exmarine]

Oh he can, but there are other ways of punishing than by Hell.

What other punishment is available? Heaven is not a punishment - it's a reward! It's paradise. Should I get ready for more man-made doctrine that contradicts Scripture? Jesus said "I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE, NO ONE COMES UNTO THE FATHER BUT BY ME." Peter said, "THERE IS NO OTHER NAME UNDER HEAVEN BY WHICH MAN MUST BE SAVED". These are rather plain wouldn't you say? You are confused. So, you catholics are saying that a person can get to heaven without faith in Christ? This is in direct contravention to what Jesus Himself said! He also said, "ENTER THRU THE NARROW GATE" and that "NARROW IS THE PATH THAT LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE BUT WIDE IS THE PATH THAT LEADS TO DESTRUCTION" - what part of this allows someone to go to heaven without Christ? With all due respect, Allend, this doctrine amounts to apostasy! If there were any other way to get to heaven, there would have been NO NEED FOR GOD TO SEND HIS SON TO DIE! BUT THERE WAS AND IS NO OTHER WAY!

[exmarine]

However, you haven't demonstrated that he does not make grace available to those who have not heard of him.

Scriptures are our guide. The burden of proof is ON YOU, since scriptures do not allow for ANY OTHER WAY! It is you who need to demonstrate there is another way available according to scripture!

[exmarine]

The book of wisdom? What is that? I don't give a hoot what any other book has to say about salvation other than the Holy Scriptures. Anything that contradicts them is a damnable lie! It's anti-Christ. Paul said even if an angel from heaven preaches another gospel, let him be accursed! Let the book of wisdom be accursed!

[exmarine]

So Christians sin, as do others. But no matter. Christians will get to heaven. Non-Christians, for the same sins, go to Hell. Bad theology, guy. God is impartial.

Bad theology? It's right from the book of Romans! God is impartial to all those judged under the Law! But those who have faith in Christ are covered by His blood and are declared not guilty. How many scriptures do you need to prove my point? This is ridiculous - I post scriptures that plainly lay it out and you just ignore them - at your peril. If you do not trust Christ alone for salvation - you will be judged by the Law. That is crystal clear. And no man can stand being judged by the Law. This "bad theology" is clearly laid out by Paul in Romans, Colossians and Galations. I find it sad that you hold to these anti-bilbical teachings. Let me state one more time so there is no doubt - any doctrine that contradicts scripture is A LIE! Secondly, you can use the excuse that I misinterpret the scriptures, but the plain reading - word for word - is quite plain. You are hopelessly confused in your doctrine, and the doctrine you have posted here ARE DAMNABLE LIES. Oour conversation is over. I don't want to confuse you any further with the FACTS.

[exmarine]

So Christians sin, as do others. But no matter. Christians will get to heaven. Non-Christians, for the same sins, go to Hell. Bad theology, guy. God is impartial.

I still can't believe you wrote this, and call yourself a bleiver in Jesus Christ. ALL HAVE SINNED. Get it? "ALL" means everyone in earth's history, including you and the pygmies. Christians are covered by the blood of Christ (those that put faith in Him). All others are NOT - they will be judged by the Law. And all are guilty. Ro 3:10 - there is none righteous, no not one. Guilty. If there was another way for God to extend His Grace, why did he send His Son to die? hmmm? That doesn't make sense.

[heyheyhey]

Scriptures do not allow for ANY OTHER WAY!

I can tell you haven't read the Bible quote in my post #228.
There is NO OTHER WAY than THROUGH CHRIST.
But, you seem to limit Him and terribly underestimate Him.

I will give you more Scripture quotes to ponder:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came to be through him, and without him nothing came to be. John 1, 1-4

I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea, and all of them were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea. All ate the same spiritual food, and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they drank from a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was the Christ. 1Cor 10, 1-4

Today we, the Catholics, celebrate the feast of Assumption - Mary, the Mother of God, taken body and soul to heaven. The Catholic Church has always believed that Mary was free from the Original Sin in a unique anticipation of the Sacrifice of Christ (only God could do that for Her and for the Son of God), and Mary's body was preserved from the corruption of death in a unique anticipation of the general resurrection.

Just as in Adam all die, so too in Christ shall all be brought to life, but each one in proper order: Christ the firstfruits; then, at His coming, those who belong to Christ. 1Cor 15, 22-25

[heyheyhey]

The book of wisdom? What is that?

O.K. You have the abbreviated version of the Bible, about 90% of it. You can get the REAL thing from any Catholic bookstore.

[stuartcr]

Thanks for the answers.