A Reflection on Apostasy

The Diocese Report/DRBlog ^ | Wednesday, August 14, 2002 | Brian Mershon

[babyface00]

I certainly agree that members of the RC church haven't always acted godly, but I find it hard to understand how a "broken" RC church jibes with Jesus promises regarding his church and him being with it always (unfortunately, most of us Catholics don't have the Bible memorized, so I can't quote the verse verbatim). I don't look to the priestly hierarchy so much as to the faithful. If the RC church was broken so badly that it needed to be essentially abolished (maybe marginalized is a better word?), lets say sometime before the first Inquisition, that means the faithful were essentially out of luck for 500 years until the Reformation. That's a lot of generations.

If the faithful during that time period didn't need the/a church, then why did Jesus have to come and establish it in the first place? It seems that he could have just sent a couple of prophets and steered the Jews in the right direction and been done with it. Jesus' teachings didn't toss out the OT as much as supplement it.

Seems to me that the only major church other than RC that doesn't leave Christians out in the cold for half a millenium is the Orthodox church.

I'm not saying that this makes Protestant churches invalid somehow. Its just that, the more I've learned about Orthodoxy, the more I wonder about the impetus behind the Reformation. Orthodoxy didn't have the supposed baggage of the RC church. Why didn't the reformers look in that direction first before forming the myriad flavors of Christianity we have now? Perhaps the RC church was wrong on a couple of points, besides the fact that it has certainly changed and incorporated much of what the reformers wanted, what Protestantism has resulted in is a spectrum of faiths that is so broad as to be nearly meaningless, with no flavor being able to really assert the truthfulness of its beliefs. The only thing they seem to agree on is that Jesus existed and the RC church is wrong on just about everything. ; )

[ultima ratio]

I don't see much difference between the many variations of Protestantism and what's coming out of Rome today.
Rome has watered-down the faith so much since Vatican II that I don't see that it matters either way, whatever religion you belong to. This is why I am a traditional Catholic and attend an SSPX Mass. It is a refuge from the Modernist storms, adamantly committed to holding onto the ancient faith as taught by the apostles--and to an authentic Catholic sacramental life in all its integrity. If you've got kids and want to raise them as true Catholics, it's one of the few games in town.

[babyface00]

What's SSPX? Is that a pre-Vatican mass (I was born after Vatican II)

[Campion]

That is the "trigger" that Jesus is waiting for before He chooses to return.

Do you seriously think that God sits in heaven waiting for people (any group of people) to do something (anything) in order for him to bring the age to its consummation? As though the realization of prophecy were conditioned on human choices?

Incidentally (and I know this won't come as a shock to you, because, as an ex-Catholic, you know more about Catholicism than any Catholic, including the Pope), traditional Catholic eschatology also believes that the conversion of the Jews (some? all?) will precede the Second Coming. (See Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma) Not that it is somehow "necessary" for the Second Coming, or that God is "waiting" for that to happen, but simply because it is prophesied to happen that way.

[Campion]

Just what command tells us to follow the church? Follow Christ.

Jesus' commands, as well as Paul's, tell us to follow the church. In fact, Jesus says flatly that one who refuses to follow the church should be treated as a Gentile or a tax collector.

[Campion]

Ex-Catholic, now a Bible-believing follower of Jesus Christ.

Every faithful Catholic is a Bible-believing follower of Jesus Christ. It is an insult and a slander for you to say otherwise. Be warned: Jesus will not appreciate you spreading falsehood against his children.

[Chemnitz]

That is what I have been trying to tell Lutherans, who love their synods far more than the Christian faith Christ died to give us. One Lutheran pastor cannot leave his apostate synod because of all the glorious buildings and agencies created with so many dollars. So people are grateful for the visible (money, buildings, power structures) and despise the invisible Word of preaching and teaching.

[AnalogReigns]

If the RC church was broken so badly that it needed to be essentially abolished (maybe marginalized is a better word?), lets say sometime before the first Inquisition, that means the faithful were essentially out of luck for 500 years until the Reformation. That's a lot of generations.

Except for some of the most anti-intellectual and rabidly narrow Protestants, I don't know of any--certainly within leadership-- who think the RC church was invalidly corrupt for 500 years. The view of the reformers--and thoughtful modern evangelical scholars--is that through a slow process various traditions and scholastic explanations the Roman Church had obscured the good news of simple faith in the work of Christ--upon which the Church was founded. Again the evidence is that Luther, the other early reformers and even Calvin--did not seek to split the Church wide open...and even when the Roman hierarchy made a break official each sought to establish one Church...mainly on national (or at least regional) lines. Without the political/social/religious monopoly though, that the medieval Roman Church was--other splits became, in my opinion, inevitable.

The simple reason they didn't look to the Eastern Orthodox is that those people were Greek...and had had a separate culture, language and religion for hundreds of years. The reformers had also been steeped with teaching that these were not true Christians either..., in any event they sought to create a pure church within their own cultural sphere.

One of the key principles coming from the reformers though is that the real Church--those whose faith is true and will remain forever--is never really fully humanly known. We all know Jesus' story about the wheat and the tares for example...grain and weeds growing in the same field...which He said we are NOT to try to weed out! With this in mind, in a way Jesus' true followers are hidden or invisible--and other than just within a human organization. Correct me if I'm wrong but both Roman and Orthodox leaders officially excommunicated each other (and their respective bodies) at the time of the schism. Of course we don't believe now that such made one body (or the other) all go to hell--but that was the position at time...

I don't think its hard to believe that the risen Christ has seen to it that there are faithful followers of His within all (small "o") orthodox denominations... and that human organizations are secondary to how people exercise His love in their lives toward each other. His kingdom--and the true one Church universal--are nothing less.

Human organizations are surely necessary...and have certainly been split by sin (on all sides...) however He will unify us all soon, I am convinced... I suspect various kinds of people have been reached by (and in spite of) such schisms...that had the Church been uniform, would have otherwise been missed.

"And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose." (St. Paul in Romans 8:28)

[berned]

Do you seriously think that God sits in heaven waiting for people (any group of people) to do something (anything) in order for him to bring the age to its consummation? As though the realization of prophecy were conditioned on human choices?

Campion, THIS is what I wrote (and Believe)...That is the "trigger" that Jesus is waiting for before HE CHOOSES to return.

Here is a verse from Matthew 23 where Jesus plainly states that He will not return until Israel accepts Him as their Messiah.

37"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.38And now look, your house is left to you, empty and desolate.39For I tell you this, you (ISRAEL) will never see me again until you say, `Bless the one who comes in the name of the Lord!'" .

Why, Campion, do you continually misrepresent what others say, in order to "debate" with people? I don't understand why you continually do that. I try to choose my words in these posts with lawyerly precision, because I know RCC spin-doctors like you and allend and sinkspur will try to parse and spin every word I write to suit your needs. The fact that you have to distort what I say in order to participate in a debate speaks volumes about the weakness of your arguments.

[ultima ratio]

SSPX is a priestly fraternity which keeps to the customs and beliefs of the Catholic Church before it was hijacked by liberals. Check their many websites to learn more about them. They offer the traditional Mass exactly as it was offered up until 1970.

[berned]

The GREATER, more significant question, btw, in light of the verses I posted from Matthew 23 is:

WHY is the Vatican actively TELLING the Jews that they need not EVER say "Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord"?

What is the Vatican's hidden agenda that impels them, out of nowhere, to proclaim that Israel need never make that confession of faith in Jesus?

[RedBloodedAmerican]

I've had two friends who are Pastors, and one Rabbi, "run off", or "voted out" because they loved their buildings more than the gospel. Oh well.

[semaj]

"It's the only church other than RC who can claim any historical ancestry to the early church."

Could you please explain to me what the historical ancestry of the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox Church has to do with God's plan of salvation?

[NYer]

"Catholics Reject Evangelization of Jews."

Judging from the posts so far, the usual catholic bashers have wasted no time stepping forward, bibles swinging!

Here, however, is a novel concept for the more open minded christians. Consider that the Jews are now self evangelizing. The group, Jews for Jesus has come a long way since they were first organized.

Our Mission Statement

We exist to make the messiahship of Jesus an unavoidable issue to our Jewish people worldwide.

Summary Description

Jews for Jesus is one of the most extensive evangelistic outreaches to Jewish people in the world today. Using contemporary themes and issues, Jews for Jesus presents the message that Jesus is the Messiah to Jewish population in urban areas. Their web site has now branched into two - for Believers and for Non Believers . With the conversion of their own, they are now looking to bring their message to the christian communities.

http://www.jfjonline.org/pastors/pastorsmain.htm