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Minister's suspension exposes debate on interfaith relations
The Journal News ^ | July 23, 2002 | Gary Stern

Posted on 07/23/2002 5:26:45 PM PDT by Charles Henrickson

Edited on 05/07/2004 8:12:57 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

Many New Yorkers were stunned when a Lutheran minister was suspended recently for praying alongside non-Christians

(Excerpt) Read more at thejournalnews.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events; US: New York
KEYWORDS: benke; interfaith; lcms; lutheranchurch; missourisynod
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
I actually have more respect for those Catholics who excluded me from their service than those today who accept and invite heathens to the alter of Christ.

Those Ecumenical activists are hypocritical atheists who see the religion as a tool for power and social engineering. They are the same people who ruined Episcopalian Church and who wreck the public schools.

41 posted on 07/24/2002 10:05:58 AM PDT by A. Pole
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
I actually have more respect for those Catholics who excluded me from their service than those today who accept and invite heathens to the alter of Christ.

Catholics don't invite heathens to the "altar of Christ," though we do pray with Christians and non-Christians.

WIth all due respect to my Lutheran brethren (though, I'm sure they don't say the same about me), this dust-up looks political.

42 posted on 07/24/2002 10:10:57 AM PDT by sinkspur
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To: Charles Henrickson
If you think a Christian minister participating in a service side by side with Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, and Sikh clerics is no big deal . . .

I do think it is not something to kick a man out of ministry over.

if you think inviting them to join you in prayer to "God" is adequate and acceptable . . .

I do.

if you think confirming idolaters in their unbelief and confusing the faithful is a nice thing to do . . .

I'm not doing that. I'm praying to God, and they're praying to God. And the faithful are only confused when some denomination makes a stink out of it, like this one.

if you think those things are a low priority item for the Christian church to be concerned about . . .

Near the bottom.

well, think again

If someone wants to pray with me, I will pray with him.

43 posted on 07/24/2002 10:16:12 AM PDT by sinkspur
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To: vladog
"Christians are not supposed to consort with pagans, unless you are trying to convert them. What is so hard to understand about that?"

I'm not sure where you're getting this information. Jesus when asked what were the greatest commandments stated, "love your God with all your heart, your soul and mind and love your neighbor as yourself" (my paraphrase). While christians are actively involved in loving and supporting their brothers and sisters in Christ, this doesn't negate Jesus's order to love your neighbor (anyone you're around) as yourself.
44 posted on 07/24/2002 10:19:41 AM PDT by Sweet Hour of Prayer
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To: sinkspur
If someone wants to pray with me, I will pray with him.

Osama bin Laden?

Would you kneel down beside that Muslim before the altar of God?

45 posted on 07/24/2002 10:26:11 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: Sweet Hour of Prayer
He said to love them; not to pray with them when you know they are bowing before a false God.

The First Commandment was and still is the most important commandment.

That's why it was first.

46 posted on 07/24/2002 10:29:42 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: biblewonk
Dave Hunt should be proud of the Missouri Synod.

Martin Luther doesn't have to feel quite so bad about these folks using his name.

47 posted on 07/24/2002 10:46:01 AM PDT by newgeezer
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Osama bin Laden?

Would you kneel down beside that Muslim before the altar of God?

If it would lead to a bullet through the back of his head, yes.

48 posted on 07/24/2002 11:05:01 AM PDT by sinkspur
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To: sinkspur; Dr. Eckleburg
If someone wants to pray with me, I will pray with him.

I would hope you wouldn't be praying to Jesus while he is praying to Shiva, Allah, or Satan.

Remember "Thou shalt have no other gods before me"?

The apostles and ancient church fathers weren't ecumenical. They preached and taught and died for the belief that Jesus was the Way, the Truth and the Light and that no man would come to the Father but by Him.

I've never had a reason to think that you were unorthodox because this isn't about doctrinal differences between Rome and us "schismatic" types. But there are certain things no Christian can do. For goodness' sake, we're forbidden even to bid godspeed to a Christian we believe to be of unsound doctrine. Dr. Eckelburg is right: there's a reason why the First Commandment came first in the list of commandments. The Father is a jealous and angry god. He demands that we hold allegiance only to Him.
49 posted on 07/24/2002 11:08:26 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: sinkspur
At least we agree on something.
50 posted on 07/24/2002 11:20:23 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: George W. Bush
He demands that we hold allegiance only to Him.

And I do. But my Church teaches that men can be led to God by ways known only to Him. If your faith is weakened by praying with Jews or other non-Christians, then you shouldn't do it.

51 posted on 07/24/2002 11:30:10 AM PDT by sinkspur
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To: Dr. Eckleburg
Please take me off your ping list
52 posted on 07/24/2002 12:33:58 PM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: Catholicguy
I don't have a "ping list."

However, if I did, you wouldn't be on it.

53 posted on 07/24/2002 12:44:30 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: sinkspur; George W. Bush; RnMomof7; A. Pole; Charles Henrickson; biblewonk; Sweet Hour of Prayer; ..
...if your faith is weakened by praying with Jews or other non-Christians...

There is a WORLD of difference between "praying with Jews" (whom I believe God holds in His hand and protects) and bowing down before the altar of Christ beside Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Harry Potter wiccans and other assorted pagans.

I've read your posts for years, and I believe, in your heart, you know that's true.

Discernment counts.

54 posted on 07/24/2002 1:02:24 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg
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To: Charles Henrickson
Thanks for the post. Please add me to your LCMS ping list. I am an LCMS member in Minnesota and very conservative in regard to most things, but I support Reverend Benke.

Regarding this issue, I feel we should ask ourselves, "What would Jesus have done?" He was roundly criticized by the Pharisees for consorting with "taxpayers and sinners" and yet he repeatedly stated through his actions and words that that was exactly where his ministry was intended to be.

Looks like we are seeing the modern day Pharisees in action with this decision to suspend Rev. Benke over abstract theological purity issues rather than ministering "unto the least of these"....

55 posted on 07/24/2002 1:08:29 PM PDT by rightwingreligiousfanatic
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To: Dr. Eckleburg


To: sinkspur; A. Pole; RnMomof7; rwfromkansas; Catholicguy; nickcarraway; Jerry_M; George W. Bush; ...

I will pray with members of the human family...

Curious.

I remember a time when I couldn't participate in a Catholic Mass because I was Presbyterian. I was asked to sit in the pew and remain silent.

I actually have more respect for those Catholics who excluded me from their service than those today who accept and invite heathens to the alter of Christ.

If 'anything goes' -- it's already gone."


39 posted on 7/24/02 10:00 AM Pacific by Dr. Eckleburg

Please do not include me in any "To:" list. Thank you
56 posted on 07/24/2002 1:08:32 PM PDT by Catholicguy
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To: George W. Bush
For goodness' sake, we're forbidden even to bid godspeed to a Christian we believe to be of unsound doctrine.

Huh? I don't think that verse made it into my Bible. Where is it in yours?

(And don't even get me started on who set whom up as a judge of another's "unsound doctrine" ...)

57 posted on 07/24/2002 1:09:43 PM PDT by Campion
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To: rightwingreligiousfanatic; egarvue; Ford Fairlane; Southflanknorthpawsis; GWfan; rocketdoc; ...
"What would Jesus have done?" He was roundly criticized by the Pharisees for consorting with "taxpayers and sinners" and yet he repeatedly stated through his actions and words that that was exactly where his ministry was intended to be.

Jesus said, "I have come to call sinners to repentence." Show me how Benke, through his actions and words, called the sinners to repentance.

Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father except through me." Show me how Benke, through his actions and words, clearly confessed the person and work of Christ and made plain that we come to God through Christ alone.

Looks like we are seeing the modern day Pharisees in action with this decision to suspend Rev. Benke over abstract theological purity issues rather than ministering "unto the least of these"....

Explain to me how affirming the ministrations of pagan clerics and letting their followers remain secure in their empty, hope-less religions that cannot give them forgiveness for their sins or save them from death--explain to me how that is an "abstract theological purity issue."

58 posted on 07/24/2002 1:31:58 PM PDT by Charles Henrickson
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To: Charles Henrickson
It was a prayer service to honor the victims of what is arguably our nation's greatest tragedy!

What is wrong with having a 1) Christian and 2) Lutheran perspective represented? How is our denominational "purity" harmed by his presence there? I don't have the text of Benke's comments/prayer but I'm sure it contained nothing but uplifting Christian sentiments that flowed straight from the Gospel. I just don't get the extreme conservatism on this one, but then I'm "just" a layperson. Maybe you can convince me otherwise. We are having a former President of Ft Wayne Seminary present to our congregation next week about this issue and I will keep an open mind.... But for now I just don't get this fear of "mixing" with other faiths.

59 posted on 07/24/2002 1:47:38 PM PDT by rightwingreligiousfanatic
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To: Charles Henrickson
Explain to me how affirming the ministrations of pagan clerics and letting their followers remain secure in their empty, hope-less religions that cannot give them forgiveness for their sins or save them from death--explain to me how that is an "abstract theological purity issue."

As an addendum to my earlier response, I agree that if this is what he had done it would have been wrong and harmful. However, I disagree that by participating in this event that he affirmed the "ministrations of pagan clerics"; to the contrary, he showed the gospel to be in stark contrast to the hopeless and bizarre Hindu, Sikh, etc. proclamations. Thereby perhaps enlightening some who would not otherwise have been reached. Should we abandon the stage to the pagans? Or try to stand in stark contrast to them in the same arena?

60 posted on 07/24/2002 2:02:29 PM PDT by rightwingreligiousfanatic
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