Justice probe of Sun could spur new look at H-1B visas

The Work Circuit ^ | June 28, 2002 | Margaret Quan

[RogueIsland]

I know this is a topic that has come up here on FR from time to time, and I didn't see this posted (if I missed it on a search, or there was a related article, my apologies). Thought it might be of some iterest to those in the industry here.

[RogueIsland]

..

[The Duke]

I've been in the technology industry for many years, and now run my own company. For the longest time I tried to raise the alarm on these issues only to run into technology braggarts who say to me "I'm so good that I'll always get top dollar here in the US".

My response is to now outsource all my software development offshore, and with great results thus far. There's nothing I would like better than to be forced by law to hire only US programmers, but until the braggarts climb down off their soapboxes, stop thumping their chests, and bring about some REAL political change, I'm happy to use offshore talent and remain competitive.

I would prefer to have an environment that compelled me (and, of course, my competitors) to hire US citizens AND provide good wages, however if "Poindexter" wants to go head-to-head with "Haji", then so be it.

Were I still a programmer I'd be joining this Programmer's Guild and making some real noise.

[Duke Nukum]

Aha! This must be why they can't make a decent keyboard!

There are many a times I've fantasized Mr. Gates taking over the world and ridding us of Sun after turning on the caps lock when I wanted to hit the control key.

[B4Ranch]

This article has some points that stand out.

An honest accounting of Arab decline

[Poohbah]

If you're getting better results for less money by going offshore, then there is no way in hell you'd REALLY like to be forced to hire US programmers.

[RogueIsland]

There's nothing I would like better than to be forced by law to hire only US programmers, but until the braggarts climb down off their soapboxes, stop thumping their chests, and bring about some REAL political change, I'm happy to use offshore talent and remain competitive.

As a programmer, I have to admit that you, and the industry in general, is in the same catch-22 that manufacturing used to be. To remain competitive and stay in business, you have to hire cheap, and if you hire cheap, you kill off the domestic workforce. If you hire expensive, you go out of business and still kill of the domestic workforce. When this happened in manufacturing, people said, "no problem, we're moving to an information economy anyway, the workers can retrain." Well, now we've moved to an information economy and now those jobs too are being lost to cheap foreign labor.

What's the ultimate destiny of America, a nation of 250 million fast food joint employees?

I don't have an answer. It seems like a damned if you do, damned if you don't proposition.

[Reaganwuzthebest]

These same companies who lobbied Congress to raise H1-B quotas are now complaining there's not enough Americans taking up engineering careers. Well duh!! I started out in college as a computer programmer but switched majors when Congress continued to sell us out. No doubt there's thousands more like me.

It's common sense to get into a field where there's security. As long as Americans have to compete with cheaper (and more compliant) foreign labor in a particular trade, they'll find something else.

[det dweller too]

What's the ultimate destiny of America, a nation of 250 million fast food joint employees?

I don't have an answer. It seems like a damned if you do, damned if you don't proposition.

I have an idea, Let's get MANAGEMENT from out there. God knows they can't be worse tthan the current crop. In fact, they will have a better view of being treated like crap, and who knows, maybe reverse the stupid greedy MBA braindroppings that foul up everyone.

[Frohickey]

As a programmer, I have to admit that you, and the industry in general, is in the same catch-22 that manufacturing used to be. To remain competitive and stay in business, you have to hire cheap, and if you hire cheap, you kill off the domestic workforce. If you hire expensive, you go out of business and still kill of the domestic workforce. When this happened in manufacturing, people said, "no problem, we're moving to an information economy anyway, the workers can retrain." Well, now we've moved to an information economy and now those jobs too are being lost to cheap foreign labor.

Are there any examples of regulations that US businesses need to follow when they hire workers, as opposed to overseas countries? Therein must lie the stifling factor. Unnecessary inspections? Unnecessary regulations? Minimum wage laws, etc?

[Frohickey]

I know there is the government mandate of having employer paid benefits.

[Poohbah]

Oops. You broke-a da code.

[Arleigh]

You know what's another scam? When the Technocriminals convinced Congress that they needed more foreign indentured serfs or they'd pull up stakes and move to Calcutta (right!), the trade-off was that the extra H-1B fees would be used to retrain American workers. Well, that lasted about one whole year. This year, Jorge's Department of Labor announced that they needed the extra fees to hire more bureaucrats to process all the new visas.

Somebody please explaine to me the difference between a RepublicRat and a Demopublican again...

[The Duke]

I don't have an answer. It seems like a damned if you do, damned if you don't proposition.

The answer is not to allow yourself to become a victim. You only go around one time in this world, so take the bull by the horns. If you can't program, then I say "get political" and stir things up a bit!

[Tired of Taxes]

I had heard - and read on a website - about a year ago that the gov't subsidizes the salaries companies pay to H1B (or was it H2B?) employees. Today, I just happened to be researching the topic before I saw this thread, but I haven't been able to find information about gov't subsidies. Was that information correct? Or was it just a rumor (or perhaps a misunderstanding on my part)?

[dwollmann]

Wouldn't it be interesting to compare the list of countries that are eating our tech lunch with the list of those that are subsidized with our tax money? I'd bet that the ones that are low-balling us can afford to do so because the criminals in D.C. are dumping billions into their economies to prop up their socialist utopias.

[nightdriver]

"H-1B was created to allow U.S. employers to hire foreign workers with special skills that are purportedly scarce among the U.S. work force."

This post says it all. Of course there is going to be a shortage of Americans that commit themselves to a career with these hard-earned special skills when they are the first to become unemployed.

Those H1-Bs are killers! Post #8 says it more eloquently than I can.

[stylin19a]

Scratchin my head, here...

The Justice Department has sent a letter to Sun asking for access to such documents as the company's immigration application

Can't Justice just get the info from the INS ?

FYI..a client I work for, is considering outsourcing tech support & development to India. ( bypassing H-1B altogether ) They are not appreciating my status reports in Hindi.

[A. Pole]

I'm happy to use offshore talent and remain competitive.

Have you considered leaving this country alltogether?

[A. Pole]

What's the ultimate destiny of America, a nation of 250 million fast food joint employees?

I don't have an answer. It seems like a damned if you do, damned if you don't proposition.

The pure free market will move labor and production to the countries like China and India. And then the profits and ownership will go there also.

But before it happens, the political, legal infrastructure will be destabilised and free market will lose its fundation.

The nation is something more that collective efforst to secure legal framwork and protection for the free unrestrained use of the wealth by the owners.