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VOUCHERS: THE PARENT TRAP
TORCH, TEXAS EAGLE FORUM | MARCH 1999 | CATHY ADANS

Posted on 07/05/2002 6:49:32 AM PDT by capecodder

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To: capecodder
How long before the government requires certain accrediation of schools accepting vouchers? What about teacher training? What about hiring practices and civil rights?...

If a school is failing, parents simply won't send their kids there. If they do, it's their choice.
If they don't like something about a school, they don't have to go there. They can choose another.
For example; Christian schools don't have to allow Sodomites. That's their religious views. If sodomites don't like it, they can go to the public schools they've created or open their own. . It's a choice.
Look at homeschools. Parents, who are not accredited, are kicking the public schools butt! Accredation is an NEA thing. They invented that, not the parents. Actually, nonaccreditated parents are doing a better job.

21 posted on 07/05/2002 7:36:47 AM PDT by concerned about politics
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To: capecodder
This doesn't address the key counterargument as stated above which rests on the comparison between food stamps and vouchers. According to this view, the introduction of food stamps has not paved the way for more governmental regulation of supermarkets (other than those regulations which already exist) because the food stamps are under the control of consumers, not the provider.

Hence, according to this view, the introduction of vouchers will not create a *greater* danger of governmental regulation of schools for the same reason because these too will be under the control of consumers.

To be sure, government regulates the schools....but this was not caused by vouchers. The key issue is whether vouchers would lead to *more* regulation.

22 posted on 07/05/2002 7:39:27 AM PDT by Austin Willard Wright
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To: capecodder
It seems that the public's general belief is that students who take advantage of vouchers will somehow miraculously become geniuses----WRONG----"You can lead anyone to education, but you can't make him take it."
23 posted on 07/05/2002 7:40:23 AM PDT by poppytpee
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To: capecodder
Those two cases you cite were about colleges and federal money and civil rights issues. As others pointed out, it fails to address tax money collected by a county authority which is given back to an individual to use at a school of choice.

Also, as I point out, the private school would simply not accept voucher students if any government thinks it can force changes in policies.

24 posted on 07/05/2002 7:44:48 AM PDT by FreeTally
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To: concerned about politics
First of all, replace "accreditation" for my error in spelling.

Secondly, do you really think that private schools will be able to withstand suits brought by teachers who believe there has been discrimination in hiring practices at a govenment funded (and, therefore, no longer) private school?

And, how will private schools be able to maintain private school admissions standards? Won't they be "discriminating" if they don't take a student with "special needs" or with a "disciplinary record"?

And, if, as is the case in Florida, the students are required to take the state "assessment," who really controls the curriculum?

25 posted on 07/05/2002 7:45:06 AM PDT by capecodder
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To: FreeTally
All states take fed-ed funds. In return, all states have agreed to fed-ed education goals. The states require local districts to conform with state law and regulation which is written to conform to federal law and regulation.

As a wise school administrator said to me on this topic: "If you take the king's shilling, you become the king's man."

26 posted on 07/05/2002 7:49:45 AM PDT by capecodder
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To: capecodder
Vouchers will break the monopoly of the NEA.

It is one thing to control public schools when you have the support of the union, and the administrators. It is another is the private schools fight the attempt to control them.

Take the money away from the unions, you take the money away from the poloticians. Once the unions no longer have a lock on all of that money, their hold over the poloticians will weaken.

This problem did not develop overnight, nor will it be corrected overnight. Vouchers are a start.

27 posted on 07/05/2002 7:52:38 AM PDT by CIB-173RDABN
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To: Austin Willard Wright
To be sure, government regulates the schools....but this was not caused by vouchers. The key issue is whether vouchers would lead to *more* regulation.

Exactly. Its noy like private schools are "unregulated". They can't refuse to admit someone based upon their skin color, and they couldn't make rules like no lunch is allowed at school or something. We wont see accrediting of teachers. We will not see the government try to tell religious schools they cant say homosexuality is a sin. We will not see the government tell private schools they have to accept this person or that one, or that they can not expell this person.

There are stacks and stacks of legal decisions supporting the rights of privaet schools to have much tougher policies than public schools. Vouchers will not change this. The school I went to could expell anyone for any reason really, if they wanted. Usually, you were given the option of leaving if there was a problem with you. But the students were there because their parents wanted them there. All students were answerable to their parents. The student handbook even had a rule that said you could be expelled for any action the school deemed "immoral". Common incidents involved pregnancy or sex, drinking or drug parties or a generally rebelious atitude.

28 posted on 07/05/2002 7:52:44 AM PDT by FreeTally
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To: Dakmar
I believe this is a little different that the Disablities Act. There is no political traction to regulate private schools through voucher funding because private schools perform better than public schools. I guess I just don't agree with the whole "Trojan Horse" line of thinking.
29 posted on 07/05/2002 7:53:44 AM PDT by rudypoot
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To: capecodder
"In reality, public funding would destroy private education. "

Excellent! Public Edumacation is not education. It is brain-washing. More third graders know about Heather and her two mommies than can read.

30 posted on 07/05/2002 7:54:08 AM PDT by PatrioticAmerican
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To: capecodder
do you really think that private schools will be able to withstand suits brought by teachers who believe there has been discrimination in hiring practices at a govenment funded (and, therefore, no longer) private school?

Your premise is false. They are not government funded. See my post #19. The student is not a conduit for government funds. The funds have been rebated to the parent, the parent is making a free choice as to how the parents 'ed dollars' get spent.

31 posted on 07/05/2002 7:55:13 AM PDT by Starwind
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To: capecodder
Your argument that he who pays the piper, calls the tune is persuasive but your example is that of a government subsidy to providers (namely state governments), not to the consumers (namely parents) as would be case under vouchers. Again, I don't necessarily disagree with you but you have yet to provide a strong counterargument to this specific point as I outlined in my two previous posts.
32 posted on 07/05/2002 7:57:27 AM PDT by Austin Willard Wright
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To: Starwind
See post #15.

The Supreme Court and the Congress have already spoken on the issue.

It doesn't matter whether the school gets the money or the student brings the money, the effect is government power over the institution.

33 posted on 07/05/2002 7:58:59 AM PDT by capecodder
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To: capecodder
Secondly, do you really think that private schools will be able to withstand suits brought by teachers who believe there has been discrimination in hiring practices at a govenment funded (and, therefore, no longer) private school?

I think you are not quite seeing this correctly. You do not become "government funded" simply by accepting one student with a voucher. No court will see it that way.

And, how will private schools be able to maintain private school admissions standards? Won't they be "discriminating" if they don't take a student with "special needs" or with a "disciplinary record"?

This simply just will not happen. Like I said, most private schools will probably consult an attorney before they even accept a voucher student. If the school "changed" some rules because of whatever, then it would go broke, because parents would just take their kids out and send them to another private school that didn't accept voucher students.

If ANY court rules that once a private school accepts vouchers, its no longer private accept that they are privately funded, then no private school will accept vouchers. Its that simple. You are forgeting that it is the school's choice to take vouchers. No court will rule that private schools have to accept voucher students. There is as much basis for that as there would be for saying private companies have to hire any former government employee.

34 posted on 07/05/2002 8:00:43 AM PDT by FreeTally
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To: capecodder
I see your post #15 and I raise you my post #19
35 posted on 07/05/2002 8:00:45 AM PDT by Starwind
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To: rudypoot
To be honest, I'm on the fence on this issue. While I wholeheartedly support anything that would get kids out of public indoctrination centers, I also have seen ample evidence of the Fedgov pretty much destroying anything they touch.
36 posted on 07/05/2002 8:02:44 AM PDT by Dakmar
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To: rudypoot
There is no political traction to regulate private schools through voucher funding because private schools perform better than public schools.

And we are all forgetting one important fact: Most politicians send their children to private schools. They would not vote for something that would hurt the schools they send their children to. Its that simple.

37 posted on 07/05/2002 8:03:23 AM PDT by FreeTally
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To: FreeTally
So what we're really talking about is just spending more money to send send kids to government controlled schools, right? :-)
38 posted on 07/05/2002 8:04:43 AM PDT by Dakmar
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To: Dakmar
So what we're really talking about is just spending more money to send send kids to government controlled schools, right? :-)

Actually, no, on two counts:
1) It's not more money, it's the same money taxed away that's been rebated back to parents
2) There is no government control. It is parents spending their money as they choose.

39 posted on 07/05/2002 8:08:12 AM PDT by Starwind
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To: Starwind
The key distinction is that parents are exercising there choice as to how to spend their money (rebated through vouchers), not the school or government. The student is not a conduit for government funds in this case. The funds belong to the parent, not the government.

The funds are tax dollars, yours and mine, comingled. Once those dollars leave our hands, the money becomes government funds.

40 posted on 07/05/2002 8:08:38 AM PDT by capecodder
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