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Let the next big idea be decency (An Arab's-eye View)
Arab News ^ | 6/25/2002 | Abderrahman Ulfat

Posted on 06/25/2002 9:28:55 AM PDT by ArcLight

“From the fifth to the tenth century Europe lay sunk in a night of barbarism which grew darker and darker. It was a barbarism far more awful and horrible than that of the primitive savage, for it was the decomposing body of what had been a great civilization.”

“The Christian-Germanic virtues did not result in progress, but in steady and growing barbarization. It is not true that a New World began at once to sprout on the ruins of the old. On the contrary, for close on five hundred years Europe sank lower and lower; things went steadily and continuously from bad to worse. In the ninth century the conditions were immeasurably more desolately dark and more utterly hopeless than they had been in the sixth or seventh. If we picture that Dark Continent of the ninth century isolated from the rest of the world and left to its own resources, there is no ground for surmising that it could ever, by virtue of any element of life existing within it, become civilized at all. Whatever, possibilities might exist in that dark welter of degradation, whatever factor might under propitious conditions be turned to advantage, it contained no endogenous seeds of life and progress that had power to germinate by virtue of their intrinsic force. The fate of Europe might conceivably have been to become fossilized into a kind of barbaric Abyssinia.

“The light from which civilization was once more rekindled did not arise from any embers of Greek-Roman culture smoldering amid the ruins of Europe, or from the living death on the Bosporus. It did not come from the Northern, but from the Southern invaders of the Empire, from the Saracens.”


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: christianity; europe; history; islam
Weird, but interesting...
1 posted on 06/25/2002 9:28:55 AM PDT by ArcLight
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To: ArcLight
“From the fifth to the tenth century Europe lay sunk in a night of barbarism which grew darker and darker. It was a barbarism far more awful and horrible than that of the primitive savage

That was then, this is now. If you replace the word Europe with Arabia, it would read the same way except that the Western World progressed and Arabia never really has, thanks to their unwavering devotion to cultism in the form of Islam.

2 posted on 06/25/2002 9:35:41 AM PDT by TADSLOS
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To: ArcLight
Weird,yes but it was also hundreds of years ago. The recency of Arab barbarism can be measured in hours.
3 posted on 06/25/2002 9:38:39 AM PDT by cardinal4
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To: ArcLight
Okay, Ahmed.

Ninth century, Islam was ahead. I'll grant that you folks were not only militarily superior but that you kept alive the light of civilization.

But recently (about the last eleven hundred years or so) you have not been doing so well, eh?

I'm not gloating, Ahmed. Economics is not a zero-sum game. My wealth and prosperity does not come at your expense, nor does my relatively more civilized outlook. (Sorry if this rubs you the wrong way but I cannot find a more diplomatic way of putting it.)

Personal freedom, equal rights for the sexes, free markets, rule of law, protection of property: all these are not limited to the West. We do not wish to be an exclusive club.

Join us in peace and prosperity, why not give it a try?

The spokesmen of your religion say that Jihad means a personal, spiritual quest, not war waged against unbelievers. The evidence does not bear this out, but who is to say that it might not be true one day soon?

We'll help you along with a gentle nudge. Forgive us if it has to be with a BIG STICK.

Yours in brotherhood,

tictoc
4 posted on 06/25/2002 9:46:45 AM PDT by tictoc
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To: ArcLight
The west's discovery of democratization was essential to Islam's decline from its "Golden Age". Ironically what Bush is trying to sell to it now. But the structure of Islam is not well geared to democratic processes. Secularization, such as in Turkey, may have some chances of success. But its example in Iran offers dim hopes.
5 posted on 06/25/2002 9:48:36 AM PDT by onedoug
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To: ArcLight
There is something to this. However, Europe had the ability to pull itself out of the Dark Ages without the presence of Saracens. Of course the recovery borrowed some science and math and apparently a few other things as well from the Arabs, and the mere presence of the Islamic civilization in Europe provided the impetus to get organized and get out into the world. The Islamic invasion of Europe hastened the Renaissance, forced it to come about more quickly.
6 posted on 06/25/2002 9:52:59 AM PDT by RightWhale
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To: ArcLight
Interesting indeed. Calls for "decency" from a culture in which rape has no negative connotation.
7 posted on 06/25/2002 9:59:17 AM PDT by tacticalogic
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To: ArcLight
What I find interesting is, it is actually amazing how far the US has come in our short history and how much we have helped the rest of the world in the process. The US has done more in the last 100 years than the rest of the world did in their last 1000 years.
8 posted on 06/25/2002 10:05:28 AM PDT by Always Right
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To: ArcLight
I would point out that the viking civilization what we now refer to as the Americas. Ireland had the monastic movemnet. Yes most of the what we re3fer to as the West was being subject to barbarian invasions from the Steppes to the East but fuedal civilization was civilization and numerous cathederals came were built in these days. The Muslim influence on Europe came mostly from Spain. Following the Western Roman Empire becoming the Holy Roman Empire under Chalemange the progess of civilization was steady in the west driiven by trade among the nations there. The key points were the conversions of the Norse to Christianity (Western) and the conversion of the Russians to Orthodox Christianity. Would the West have developed differently had Charles Martel not had to defeat the Moorish invasion? Most certainly but to call the Arabic expansion of the day civilizing is to say the least stretching the point.

Byzantine civilization provided a rich source of art, science, and technology to Western Europe but clearly Western Europe had developed it own art science and technology during this period as many examples of Medevil architecture will show.

Ahmed's veiwpoint does not withstand scrutiny.

Stay well - Stay safe - Stay armed - Yorktown

9 posted on 06/25/2002 10:06:34 AM PDT by harpseal
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To: ArcLight
Not quite true. The Greek works were translated into Arabic by the Christian and Jewish Scholars in the dhimmis among the Moslems. Some of these scholars were employed by the arab rulers because they had administrative and medical abilities that the barbarian arabs lacked- they knew stuff.

Traders and Crusaders brought it back to Europe but it was not Moslem accomplishments that they imported. There is not a Moslem-arab component in European Civilization. It is still Judaeo-Christian-Greek and was preserved by Jews and Christians in the Moslem empires and by Christian monks in Europe itself.

10 posted on 06/25/2002 10:08:56 AM PDT by arthurus
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To: ArcLight
During the Dark Ages in Europe the power struggle between the kings and the church brought about a condition very similar to what is Islam today. The inquisitions, etc., that challenged anything scientific as being "against God" is very similar to Islam today. In short, the Dark Ages of Europe were very similar to Islam today.
11 posted on 06/25/2002 10:23:19 AM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot
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To: ArcLight

How the Irish Saved Civilization: The Untold Story of Ireland's Heroic Role from the Fall of Rome to the Rise of Medieval Europe - by Thomas Cahill, 1995.

12 posted on 06/25/2002 10:31:09 AM PDT by FairWitness
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To: ArcLight
The following is from the Catholic Encyclopedia. Certainly no champion of the Byzantines.

"It will be seen from all this that the development of the Byzantine Empire was by no means uniform in point either of time or of place. Why is it then that the word Byzantine conveys a definite and self consistent idea? Was there not something which through all those centuries remained characteristic of Byzantines in contrast with the neighbouring peoples? To this it must be replied that such was certainly the ease, and that the difference lay, first of all, in the more advanced civilization of Byzantium. Many small but significant details are recorded — as early as the sixth century Constantinople had a system of street-lighting; sports, equestrian games or polo-playing, and above all races in the circus attained a high national and political importance; Byzantine princesses married to Venetians introduced the use of table forks in the West. More striking are the facts that as early as the eighth and ninth centuries, the Byzantines, in their wars with the Arabs, used gunpowder — the so-called Greek fire — and that a German emperor like Otto III preferred to be a Roman of Byzantium rather than a German. This Byzantine civilization, it is true suffered from a serious and incurable disease, a worm gnawing at its core — the utter absence of originality. But here again, we should beware of unwarranted generalization. A change in this respect is to be noted from age to age, in the first centuries, before the complete severing of the political and ecclesiastical ties uniting them with the Eastern nations the Greek mind still retained its gift of receptivity, and ancient Greek art traditions, in combination with Persian, Syrian, and other Oriental motives, produced the original plan of the true Byzantine church — a type which left its impression on architecture, sculpture painting, and the minor arts. And yet so complete was the isolation of the empire, separated from other nations by the character of its government, the strictness of its court etiquette, the refinement of its material civilization, and, not least, by the peculiar development of the national Church, that a kind of numbness crept over both the language and the intellectual life of the people. The nations of the West were indeed barbarians in comparison with the cultured Byzantines, but the West had something for the lack of which no learning, no technical skill could compensate — the creative force of an imagination in harmony with the laws of nature."

Catholic Encyclopedia

13 posted on 06/25/2002 11:13:34 AM PDT by F-117A
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