How Long Do You Hold A Grudge? Do You Teach It To Your Children?

The Medieval Source book | Around 740 | Medieval Authors

[mjf]

So, how long do you hold a grudge? Do you teach it to your children like the Hatfields and McCoys?

When I read that the Arabs were teaching their children to hate England, America, Israel, and assorted others I noticed that they started with the Crusades.

I expect they left out this part of history, the battle of Tours and the invasion by the Saracens of Spain from 711 to 715.

This has been going on a long time.

It has been going on since the start of Christianity, since the beginning of Judaism. That's a few thousand years.

 

Medieval Sourcebook:
Arabs, Franks, and the Battle of Tours, 732: Three Accounts

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[Davis Introduction]

The following opinion was expressed about the Franks by the emir who conquered Spain, and who---had he not been recalled---might have commanded at Tours. It shows what the Arab leaders thought of the men of the North up to the moment of their great disillusionment by "The Hammer."

From an Arabian Chronicler

Musa being returned to Damascus, the Caliph Abd-el Melek asked of him about his conquests, saying "Now tell me about these Franks---what is their nature?"

"They," replied Musa, "are a folk right numerous, and full of might: brave and impetuous in the attack, but cowardly and craven in event of defeat."

"And how has passed the war betwixt them and thyself? Favorably or the reverse?"

"The reverse? No, by Allah and the prophet!" spoke Musa. "Never has a company from my army been beaten. And never have the Moslems hesitated to follow me when I have led them; though they were twoscore to fourscore."

<center><img src=

http://campus.northpark.edu/history/WebChron/WestEurope/Tours.Gif><br></center><p>

Isidore of Beja's Chronicle

[Davis Introduction]

The defeat of the Saracen invaders of Frankish lands at Tours (more properly Poitiers) in 732 A.D. was a turning point in history. It is not likely the Muslims, if victorious, would have penetrated, at least at once, far into the north, but they would surely have seized South Gaul, and thence readily have crushed the weak Christian powers of Italy. It is very unfortunate that we do not possess scientific accounts of Charles Martel's great victory, instead of the interesting but insufficient stories of the old Christian chroniclers.

Then Abderrahman, [the Muslim emir] seeing the land filled with the multitude of his army, crossed the Pyrenees, and traversed the defiles [in the mountains] and the plains, so that he penetrated ravaging and slaying clear into the lands of the Franks. He gave battle to Duke Eudes (of Aquitaine) beyond the Garonne and the Dordogne, and put him to flight---so utterly [was he beaten] that God alone knew the number of the slain and wounded. Whereupon Abderrahman set in pursuit of Eudes; he destroyed palaces, burned churches, and imagined he could pillage the basilica of St. Martin of Tours. It is then that he found himself face to face with the lord of Austrasia, Charles, a mighty warrior from his youth, and trained in all the occasions of arms.

For almost seven days the two armies watched one another, waiting anxiously the moment for joining the struggle. Finally they made ready for combat. And in the shock of the battle the men of the North seemed like North a sea that cannot be moved. Firmly they stood, one close to another, forming as it were a bulwark of ice; and with great blows of their swords they hewed down the Arabs. Drawn up in a band around their chief, the people of the Austrasians carried all before them. Their tireless hands drove their swords down to the breasts [of the foe].

At last night sundered the combatants. The Franks with misgivings lowered their blades, and beholding the numberless tents of the Arabs, prepared themselves for another battle the next day. Very early, when they issued from their retreat, the men of Europe saw the Arab tents ranged still in order, in the same place where they had set up their camp. Unaware that they were utterly empty, and fearful lest within the phalanxes of the Saracens were drawn up for combat, they sent out spies to ascertain the facts. These spies discovered that all the squadrons of the "Ishmaelites" had vanished. In fact, during the night they had fled with the greatest silence, seeking with all speed their home land. The Europeans, uncertain and fearful, lest they were merely hidden in order to come back [to fall upon them] by ambushments, sent scouting parties everywhere, but to their great amazement found nothing. Then without troubling to pursue the fugitives, they contented themselves with sharing the spoils and returned right gladly to their own country.

Chronicle of St. Denis

The Muslims planned to go to Tours to destroy the Church of St. Martin, the city, and the whole country. Then came against them the glorious Prince Charles, at the head of his whole force. He drew up his host, and he fought as fiercely as the hungry wolf falls upon the stag. By the grace of Our Lord, he wrought a great slaughter upon the enemies of Christian faith, so that---as history bears witness---he slew in that battle 300,000 men, likewise their king by name Abderrahman. Then was he [Charles] first called "Martel," for as a hammer of iron, of steel, and of every other metal, even so he dashed: and smote in the battle all his enemies. And what was the greatest marvel of all, he only lost in that battle 1500 men. The tents and harness [of the enemy] were taken; and whatever else they possessed became a prey to him and his followers. Eudes, Duke of Aquitaine, being now reconciled with Prince Charles Martel, later slew as many of the Saracens as he could find who had escaped from the battle.

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Source.

From: William Stearns Davis, ed., Readings in Ancient History: Illustrative Extracts from the Sources, 2 Vols. (Boston: Allyn and Bacon, 1912-13), Vol. II: Rome and the West, pp. 362-364.

Scanned in and modernized by Dr. Jerome S. Arkenberg, Dept. of History, Cal. State Fullerton.

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This text is part of the Internet Medieval Source Book. The Sourcebook is a collection of public domain and copy-permitted texts related to medieval and Byzantine history.

Unless otherwise indicated the specific electronic form of the document is copyright. Permission is granted for electronic copying, distribution in print form for educational purposes and personal use. If you do reduplicate the document, indicate the source. No permission is granted for commercial use.

© Paul Halsall, July 1998
halsall@murray.fordham.edu

 

That is a long time to hold a grudge.

[mjf]

They have been at this for hundreds of years. This battle took place 300 years prior to the writing of the Koran.

[mjf]

History Bump.

[mjf]

don't have a bump list bump.

[mjf]

Not interesting bump

[mjf]

those that do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. bump.

[another cricket]

This battle took place 300 years prior to the writing of the Koran.

Unless I am mistaken the Koran was written between 610-632 AD more or less and the Battle of Tours in 732 AD was about 100 years later.

You have now confused me greatly. Please explain.

a.cricket

[hoosierboy]

I hold a grudge against our former president. I guess when I have kids they will have to learn from me.

[mjf]

Okay, I give up.
Granted that it's been 1400 years since the "Moors" invaded Europe and everybody has forgotten about it.
I thought it was important to point out how long this kind of thing has been going on. This particular battle occured 300 years prior to the writing of the Koran.
After that, Charlemagne (hope I spelled that right) kicked the bad ones out of Spain.

[breakem]

I hold grudges until I die or the wrong is righted. It is my children's decision whether or not to carry it on.

[ppaul]

1683 - POLAND Saved Europe from Islamic JIHAD

Before they were utterly defeated by the King of Poland, Jan III Sobieski, at the Battle of Vienna in 1683, those followers of Muhammad, the Turks, had laid laid seige to Vienna, in their attempt to "convert" and conquer Europe.

Here was their declaration and widely published prayer (sound familiar?):

Eternal God and creator of all things, and thou O Mahomet his sacred and divine prophet. We beseech thee let us not dread the Christians, who are so mean and silly to rely on a crucified god. By the power of thy right hand, so strengthen ours that we may surround this foolish people, on every side, and utterly destroy them. At length fulfill our prayers and put these miscreants into our hands, that we may establish thy throne for ever in Mecca, and sacrifice all those enemies of our most holy religion at thy tomb. Blow us with thy mighty breath like swarms of flies into their quarters, and let the eyes of these infidels bedazelled with the lustre of our moon. Consume them with thy fiery darts, and blind them with the dust which they themselves have raised. Destroy them all in thine anger. Break all their bones in pieces, and consume the flesh and blood of those who defile thy sacrifice, and hang the sacred light of circumcision on their cross. Wash them with showers of many waters, who are so stupid to worship gods they know not: and make their Christ a son to that God who ne're begot him. Hasten therefore their destruction we humbly entreat thee, and blot out their name and religion, which they glory so much in, from off the face of the earth, that they may be no more, who condemn and mock at thy law. Amen.

And, here is an excerpt from the King of Poland's letter to his Queen, after the Battle:

.....The Rarities which were found in the Prime Vizor's Tent, were no less Numerous than Strange and Surprising, as very curious Parrots, and some Birds of Paradise, with all his Banios, and Fountains, and some Ostriches, which he Chose rather to Kill, than let 'em fall Alive into our Hands; Nay his Dispair and Jealousy transported him so far, as to Destroy his very Women for the same Reason.

The whole Army Attributes the Glory of this Victory to God, and Us, and all the Princes of the Empire, with the Great Officers, as the Dukes of Bavaria and Lorrain, Prince Waldek, etc. were so far transported with my Valour and Success, that their Thanks and Praises were more Numerous, than was their Fears before; and Count Staremberg the Governour, Saluted me with the Title of his Mighty Deliverer. The Common People in my going to and from the Churches, pay'd their Veneration even to my very Garments, and made their Cry's and Acclamations reach the Sky, of Long Live the King of Poland.....

In the battle we Lost some of our Friends, as Prince Halicki, and the Treasurer of our Household. The Reverend Marinus Daviano, heapt on me his Pray'rs and Blessings, and told me he saw a White Dove fluttering o're the Army, which he look'd upon as an happy Augure of our Victory.....

Thanks be to Heaven, now the Half-Moon triumphs no longer o'er the Cross, And 'twas thrown down from St. Stephen's Steeple in Vienna (whom it had o'retopt so long) immediately on the Defeat: Neither have the Turks any occasion to upbraid us with their blasphemous Mahometan proverb, "Ye Christians where is Your God?"

After the Battle Jan Sobieski entered Vienna in glory. The King and his Polish army won lots of fame after their victory. Jan III Sobieski was not only looked upon as the savior of Vienna, but as a savior of the whole of Europe from the Ottoman Turks.

[ppaul]

I hold a grudge against our former president. I guess when I have kids they will have to learn from me.

I suggest you don't go into the Lewinski thing until they are at least 18, okay?

[mjf]

I must have been mistaken when I looked up the word "Saracen" in the dictionary.

I did a google search on Mohammed and Koran and came up with this:

THE SPREAD OF ISLAM

Mohammed fled from Mecca to Medina in 622 A.D. when he learned that the Qoreish tribe planned to take his life. The Muslim calendar begins on the day of this flight, known as the Hijra.



So it looks like you are right, the invasion of Europe started after this wild man did his writing.

I'm not saying that every practicer of Islam is a murderer, but I am saying that this has been going on for far too long.

[Lejes Rimul]

You know, maybe I'm just funny this way, but I expect most posters, especially those posting what essentially come to vanities, to at least be less than 400 years wrong with their timelines. But then again, maybe it's just me...

[mjf]

Your reply lends a little creedance to what the Russians are fighting in Chechnya.

The Hindus of India are also having some problems with these people.

We've got a long term war on our hands.

[mjf]

Give me a break, which 400 years were you talking about? The ones I set straight prior to your post or the ones that have been filled with this kind of action by the Islamics against the people of all other religions?

[another cricket]

Ok. Just wanted to make sure Mohammed didn't have some kind of "Back to the Future" thing going on.

But you might want to have this one pulled and repost with the correct information.

a.cricket

[Lejes Rimul]

Ahem, and I quote, "This battle took place 300 years prior to the writing of the Koran."

That clear things up?

[mjf]

I'd like to be right all of the time, but I'm not. I try to correct my mistakes.

Overall, I do not think this is one of them. These people have been preaching hate and waging war for over a thousand years.

Granted, it's not all of them or even most of them, it's just a small group. Exclude the rest. Even so, they invaded Spain, and went on into France, and that is what this post is all about.

It's not about the timeline, which I got wrong concerning Mohammed, and have corrected thanks to your input, it is about the fact that this group of people have been making war on the people who have other religious holdings for many centurys.

Many centurys. 1400 years - even longer. It's been a long time. This is a long fight already.

[mjf]

read and learn

[Lejes Rimul]

I'm glad you've fixed your mistakes.