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Skyline Drive Lesbian Murders (1996)(Condit-Levy)
6-17-02 | crystalk

Posted on 06/17/2002 11:16:35 AM PDT by crystalk

We have seen in the "Condit-style" and in the "Arkancide"-style murders a tendency for the official cover stories to try to blame the killings on a place. The ten killings mentioned in the Chandra websites as possibly Condit-related, all have been tagged in official media to some specific spot and some alleged series of murders going on in that place-- with the other members of the alleged series tending to vanish upon examination.

In the case of the 1996 double murder on the Skyline Drive near Luray, Virginia, I am at a loss to say whether it more resembles Condit, or Arkancide a la Caity Mahoney, a DC intern and alleged lesbian lover of Hillary Rodham Clinton. What it does have in common is the same lack of firmness in anything the public has ever been told, the same feeling that even the most critical and vital clues or information may be retracted at any moment.

Here is the bare bones story of the Williams-Winans killings, alleged lesbian lovers aged 24 and 26 respectively, currently officially said to have been killed on the night after Monday, May 27, 1996, and with bodies discovered only as dark fell on Saturday, June 1, 1996. I have read about 20 published stories on this case, and persons seeking citations are invited to use a search engine.

Around midday on Sunday, May 19, 1996, the two young women arrived in the Shenandoah National Park and took out a back-country camping permit for five nights. They planned to leave the park on Friday, May 24, before the Memorial Day crowd would be there. Friends in an eastern city (Baltimore, as I recall) were expecting them for the 3-day weekend (May 25-27).

Their permit stated an area in which they planned to camp, but rangers later could not recall seeing their car at all in this period, esp not where it logically would be for access to the stated destination. Rangers do routinely find the campsites of, and check the permits of, at least 80% of the campers in the long, narrow park, where even the furthest back campsites are less than 5 miles from the Skyline Drive. Yet it appears no one saw the young ladies and their golden retriever Taj, anywhere, not on the trails, nor in the camping zones, nowhere.

Suddenly, on the Friday May 24, the day they planned to leave, they appeared on a well-touristed mountain climb in the park, not too bedraggled or worse for wear. They seemed cheerful and outgoing, chatting and joking with fellow climbers, taking a whole roll of film, having bystanders photograph them together, and the like. Despite having been [supposedly] in the back country with only what they could carry in, including tent, stove, sleeping bags, food for themselves and the dog, and the like...there is no evidence they bought more provisions on this day, nor that they showered at the established campsites or elsewhere. They did see a ranger and extend their camping permit for three days.

It later developed that their friends who were expecting them for the weekend were stood up, no call. On Monday, May 27, the last day of the weekend, the father of Ms Winans called in some desperation to the Park offices, insisted on declaring the girls missing and having a report made, despite being told of the time extension and that they were only expected to leave the park that same day. Word went out to all the offices and facilities in the Park to be on the lookout for the girls, their car, their dog, etc. But no one took it very seriously, for the Park felt their intended stay was only then coming to an end.

Late Wed (29) or early Thu (30), however, their car was found seemingly intact and fine, at a parking area indicating their possible camping in another back country area. No one had seen them, not even to pass on trail and say hi, no ranger had seen their camp in the daily back country patrol/visits. Just like the earlier 5 days, and now this was getting to be another 6 days!

Once the car was found [another incredible: rangers felt it impossible it can have been there the whole time, with Park visitors and employees asked to look for it.], the panic and search began in earnest. The likely camping areas based on car location were scoured on Thurs and Fri (30/31 May), with no result.

On the Saturday June 1, visitors to the Park including the most casual tourists and senior citizens coming up to eat at the Skyline Lodge, etc. were questioned and beseeched concerning any possible sighting of the women and their dog, their tent etc.

At 8:30 pm on the Sat., searchers returning in despair to the Skyline Lodge found the girls' tent in a hidden obscure cove only a few hundred yards from the Lodge itself, in a spot completely unlikely based on the car's location, and also just a few hundred yards from the Skyline Drive itself and maintained large, tourist trails.

Backcountry campers had been advised, even forbidden, to come and camp in close to busy areas like this...and worst of all, since the main reason anyone WOULD do so...might be to come in and use the facilities, eat, buy supplies, etc.--NO ONE HAD SEEN THE GIRLS IN OR AT THE LODGE, shopping, eating, showering, buying supplies, nothing. Their dog had appeared at the Lodge only on Saturday morning, with the dead girls supposedly in their tent 200 yards away for the past 5 days. (!!)

The girls had both been killed by slitting of throat, nothing had been taken, money, camera, and credit cards intact. No rape, no assault, no signs of a struggle! Park officials continued the search till Monday evening the 3rd without announcing the finding of the bodies, supposedly in hopes the perp might return to the scene of the crime. Based upon the condition of the bodies, and the girls dressed for sleep, etc. it was officially declared they were murdered while sleeping late on the night after Monday, May 27. There were no signs of a struggle, and no signs of any secondary disturbance of the crime scene by animals or people.

Initial theories that the girls might have been hurt or in distress, and tried to hike in and might not have realized how near to civilization they were, fall on the fact that the camp was very well made, tent well pitched, hours taken, good order everywhere, not in haste nor emergency. Elaborate care had been taken to put the tent in a terribly hidden, concealed spot-- not to make it or themselves findable near obvious, large, maintained trails immediately at hand.

They would have noticed lights and sounds from the Lodge, and certainly after first night there would have realized how close to the Lodge, and how far from the car, they were! But no one ever saw them at the Lodge.

For nearly six years this case remained a mystery. But in April of this year, 2002, a man already in prison in Va., Darrell David Rice of Columbia, Md., was charged with these murders, based upon his [Guandique-style unexplainable] "assault" upon a female Canadian cyclist in July of 1997, 14 months after the W/W killings.

Trouble is, the State's case is very weak: they cannot show he was in the Park, nor even in Virginia, when the crimes were committed.

He is 34 now, would have been 28 when the deeds were done.

TOPICS: Crime/Corruption
KEYWORDS: arkancide; condidit; condit; luray; murders; skyline
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You see where I am headed. Where is the evidence the two young women EVER CAMPED IN THE PARK AT ALL. Isn't it more likely this was an elaborate cover, while they were in fact somewhere else such as in Luray less than 10 miles away, or in DC some 85 miles away?

Where is the evidence they could ever have carried all this equipment, food, etc. They were not marvels of strength or physical stamina.

If the girls had been dead 200 yards from the paved road for 5 days, with countless tourists and hikers passing in the immediate area, why did not their dog appear to the people, or at the Lodge, until SATURDAY June 1?

Looks like a Conditcide or Arkancide to me!

1 posted on 06/17/2002 11:16:35 AM PDT by crystalk
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To: aristeides; Thinkin Gal; Plummz; Sarah W; muawiyah; mrustow; dennisw
crystalk ping
2 posted on 06/17/2002 11:18:50 AM PDT by crystalk
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To: crystalk
I forget where the victims lived. Was it in the D.C. area? Would they have had occasion to meet any of the prominent lesbians in the Clinton administration?
3 posted on 06/17/2002 11:33:58 AM PDT by aristeides
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To: crystalk
If they were going to visit friends in Baltimore, there's a good chance they would have known Caity Mahoney (one of the founders of the Lesbian Avengers in Baltimore) or friends of hers.
4 posted on 06/17/2002 11:36:03 AM PDT by aristeides
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To: crystalk
There is no "Skyline Lodge" in the SNP.
5 posted on 06/17/2002 11:48:28 AM PDT by CapandBall
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To: CapandBall
Your post is just the kind I hate. Picky, picky. SkyLAND Lodge, but it is on the SkyLINE Drive, much more famous name and word, I will just betcha that 90% of Virginians call it the SkyLINE Lodge. For you, SkyLAND, SkyLAND....

For a recent story redacting the crime after discussing the suspect in Va prison...try

6 posted on 06/17/2002 12:40:46 PM PDT by crystalk
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To: all
To the picky: Yes, I also forgot the two slashes after the http:// in the foregoing.

This story, newer than my info when I wrote the above, also notes that their tent was actually in site of a horse trail and a fire road as well as being some 200 yrds from SkyLAND Lodge.

Could it have stood there for a week without having a ranger approach and ask for their permit, or having some curious dog sniff the corpses and whine?

I say no. I say the bodies were brought there and we were set up with another pretty picture.

7 posted on 06/17/2002 12:46:05 PM PDT by crystalk
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To: crystalk
This partial transcript from "America's Most Wanted" differs quite a bit from your description of Williams/Winan and their time in the park:
[Host, John Walsh] On May 18, the experienced backpackers decided to go exploring. They set off from Vermont and headed south to central Virginia to the Shenandoah National Park. Julie and Lollie arrived at the northern park entrance on May 19th, and got a camping permit for two nights. They stopped at Pinnacles' Overlook on Skyline Drive. Lollie's dog, Taj, went along on the trip. The FBI and Park Rangers retraced Julie and Lollie's trip and put together a timeline, using snapshots the women took themselves. May 20th, Julie and Lollie hiked down White Oak Canyon Trail to experience the spectacular waterfalls. Despite two days of rain, they got an extension on their camping permit at Thornton Gap on May 22nd.

[Ranger Barbara Stewart] They had registered to go backcountry camping from, I believe, the 22nd to the 27th of May. When I got a chance to talk to them about, you know, about other things, just in the few minutes, I liked them, and, I didn't know their names then, but they were nice folks.

[Host, John Walsh] On May 23rd, Julie and Lollie hiked to Pollocks Knob on the Appalachian Trail. They took this photo below Crescent Rock Overlook.

[FBI, Bill Falls] Friday, on the 24th, is the last day that we actually have pictures of them.

[Host, John Walsh] Julie and Lollie hiked up Hawksbill Mountain, the highest point in the park, and took a break with Taj at Bird's Nest Two. Tired from the trek, the women hitched a ride from Hawksbill, stopping near Skyland to find a campsite for the night.

[Ranger Clayton Jordan] One of our Park Rangers drove them to a parking lot located at the top of this trail and that is the last confirmed siting of Julianne Williams and Lollie Winans alive.

8 posted on 06/17/2002 12:48:10 PM PDT by drjimmy
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To: drjimmy
Right, I admit skipping over details of what they did May 19-24, for presumably that was less important to their deaths and the probable cover-up on that.

The fact is that the official story says they camped virtually on top of the busiest spot in the SNP no later than Monday afternoon 5/27, and that no curious ranger or dog approached that tent until searchers did so on Sat nite 6/1.

If you would contend they really DID camp until May 24, it would have no impact on my thesis that they did NOT, at the location where found for that last week when the official stories have them lying there dead, with their dog who knows where, but giving no alarm.

In other words, the minute they come off the mtn on 5/24 your story segues into mine. For eight days we are together. They were never seen alive again after the 24th, and it seems utterly impossible they can have been where found for more than a matter of hours without being spotted, in part for violation of park rules.

9 posted on 06/17/2002 12:56:18 PM PDT by crystalk
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To: crystalk
To bad Dr. Scarpetta could not help?
10 posted on 06/17/2002 1:26:15 PM PDT by oldironsides
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To: crystalk
You weren't just "skipping over details of what they did May 19-24," you explicitly claim they must never have camped in the park at all, and somehow make the leap that it is "more likely" they went to Luray or DC. Thank you for posting the link to the recent news article. It gives even more credence to the likelihood that Darrell David Rice murdered the women. The only similarity between this case and the Chandra Levy murder is that a guy named Darrell may have been involved!
11 posted on 06/17/2002 1:41:22 PM PDT by drjimmy
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To: drjimmy
You are just shooting at targets of opportunity. I stated openly that I was giving just the bare bones of the story. Some glitzy show like AMW hardly is a hard source, or one likely to give anything controversial.

Nothing you have presented can explain where the girls were for 8 days from May 24 to June 1, nor why their plans changed, nor satisfy the obvious panic of Mr. Winans.

Nor does it give any evidence whatever that they were camped in the park at all on or after the night of May 24, much less at the site in busy public use--in which their bodies were found on the night of Saturday, June 1.

12 posted on 06/17/2002 1:49:49 PM PDT by crystalk
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To: drjimmy; all
Further, your story does nothing to establish that they actually CAMPED. Why did rangers never come upon their tent in the early evening as they try to do, to check permits and make sure all is well?

Your post from AMW differs from my original post only in saying that they obtained permits first for two days, then five more...where mine (from memory) says they obtained them first for five days...then three more.

BOTH STORIES STATE ONLY THAT PERMITS WERE OBTAINED. Neither story says that any ranger ever actually saw their tent pitched, or where they were or had been camping.

Nothing was seen of that nature until 8:30 pm on Sat. June 1, and by then their bodies indicated they had been dead (officially) for nearly 6 days, though other stories I have read say that med examiners can really only say they had been dead somewhere between 5 and 7, or 8, days....

13 posted on 06/17/2002 1:57:02 PM PDT by crystalk
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To: crystalk
I live 10 miles from Skyland, every Virginian I know calls it Skyland. It is the highest lodge in the park.

Where is the evidence they could ever have carried all this equipment, food, etc. They were not marvels of strength or physical stamina

It is not tough to carry gear & 10 days of food, especially when you are only going a few miles, we use a device called a "backpack".

14 posted on 06/17/2002 2:18:37 PM PDT by CapandBall
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To: crystalk
In the SNP the restriction for backcountry camping are strict. Specifically, unless in a designated area, you must camp at least 50 yards from any trail or water, and 100 yards from any road, and not be visible from the trail or road. Park police go out looking for people camping and breaking these rules, and handing out $$$ tickets for violations.

You must stealth camp or you will be ticketed.

15 posted on 06/17/2002 2:26:49 PM PDT by CapandBall
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To: crystalk
Your post is just the kind I hate. Picky, picky.

You post a pretentious "invitation" for "persons" to use a search engine and then have a hissy fit when people post information they find.

You are a consistently nasty poster who should learn some rudimentary rules of civility.

16 posted on 06/17/2002 2:33:55 PM PDT by M. Thatcher
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To: crystalk
You post incorrect "facts" in your story and then draw the conclusion that because of a lack of evidence to the contrary, they must have met up with Gary Condit or his minions in Luray or DC. Talk about "shooting at targets of opportunity"!
17 posted on 06/17/2002 2:34:54 PM PDT by drjimmy
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To: CapandBall
You are more Making than Disproving my point, for the official story would have it that their tent in violation of these rules, was right on top of the Skyland Lodge...and never found, never ticketed, even with dead bodies in it, for all of those days...

What is the chance of that? Why so many posts which pick at oversights or lapses of memory on the part of this poor old human being, but which do not invalidate my thesis...

... and none that would (if valid) actually prove they (1) ever camped; (2) were still camping after 5/24; (3) were lying dead for 5 or 6 days very near the Skyland Lodge, and (says the hook article) within sight of a dirt road and a horse trail?

The fact is, their friends strongly expected them the evening of 5/24 in Baltimore; the father of one was completely panicked by the morning of 5/27; and yet the official story is they were camped practically in the yard of the Skyland Lodge, but never made a phone call, never bought a meal or supplies, never appeared in public even on the trails or roads anywhere near there, for a week or so. Gimme a break.

18 posted on 06/17/2002 2:38:21 PM PDT by crystalk
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Comment #19 Removed by Moderator

To: drjimmy
You seem to think that if I say Skyline instead of Skyland, it somehow invalidates my theory. I have never contended that Condit killed Winans and Williams; I have only said this murder looks a lot more similar to the Levy/ Mahoney/ Chiang/ Arkancide kind of political killing we have seen so much of...than to the pretty picture we have been given on the surface.

If I am wrong, I have once again entertained you for an evening by giving you somebody to shoot at.

I warned you that this was the bare-bones outline of the crime, that I was writing from memory, and that more detail is very available on search engines if anyone wants it. Those stories, BTW, however, tend to differ from each other as much as mine does from any one of them, so be forewarned!

20 posted on 06/17/2002 2:47:24 PM PDT by crystalk
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