Posted on 06/12/2002 12:00:31 PM PDT by Ernest_at_the_Beach
ST. LOUIS - A former Southern Baptist Convention president stirred interfaith tumult when he described Muhammad, Islam's revered founder, as a "demon-possessed pedophile."
The Rev. Jerry Vines made the comments Monday night at the Southern Baptist Pastors Conference, drawing strong denunciation from Muslim leaders Tuesday when his statements were publicized.
But the Rev. Jack Graham, the new president of the Southern Baptist Convention, and the Rev. James Merritt, outgoing president, supported Vines.
Hodan Hassan, a spokeswoman for the Washington-based Council for American-Islamic Relations, said Vines' comments were divisive and inaccurate.
"This kind of hate-filled rhetoric is very shocking," Hassan said. "It is especially surprising to see it coming from someone of that stature making such a statement concerning a religion that is practiced by one-fifth of the world's population."
Vines, senior pastor of the First Baptist Church of Jacksonville, Fla., deplored the rising tide of pluralism.
"Today, people are saying all religions are the same," Vines said. "They would have us believe Islam is just as good as Christianity. But I'm here to tell you, ladies and gentlemen, that Islam is not as good as Christianity. Christianity was founded by the virgin-born Lord Jesus Christ. Islam was founded by Muhammad, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives and his last one was a 9-year-old girl."
Muslims maintain that they are the descendants of the Judeo-Christian progenitor Abraham and serve the same God as Jews and Christians, even though they call him Allah.
But Vines said: "Allah is not Jehovah. Jehovah is not going to turn you into a terrorist that'll try to bomb people and take the lives of thousands and thousands of people."
Hassan said, "I would hope that responsible people of the Southern Baptist Convention would deliver a strong denunciation of Reverend Vines' comments."
But during a news conference Tuesday, Graham quoted from Unveiling Islam, which was written by two former Muslims who are professors at conservative Baptist theological schools. Authors Ergun Caner, an assistant professor at Criswell College in Dallas, and Emir Caner, an assistant professor at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, N.C., said Muhammad had numerous concubines and 13 wives, including the 9-year-old girl, Graham said.
Syad Ahsani of Arlington, Southwest regional chairman of the American Muslim Alliance, said Muhammad was betrothed to the child, which was a common practice; however, such marriages weren't consummated until children reached adolescence.
Hassan said it is not known when Muhammad's marriage was consummated.
Muhammad was involved in polygamy, but so were early Jewish leaders, others said.
Selod Faroog, an orthopedic surgeon and an Islamic spokesman in Fort Worth, said: "People who can't face the truth come out and make accusations like this. If Muhammad was heavily involved in multiple wives, he wouldn't have had time to spend all night praying like tradition says."
Reaction to Vines' comment came as the annual meeting formally began with about 9,600 messengers, or delegates. President Bush addressed the Baptists by satellite Tuesday morning, praising them for their belief that religion should not be separated from political life.
Later, 12 gay activists from the California-based SoulForce, perennial protesters at the convention, were arrested as they tried to disrupt Merritt's convention message. Some protesters shouted, "Please hear us. ... God loves his gay and lesbian children," before they were carried away by police and charged with trespassing motivated by religious discrimination.
Outside, 37 people were arrested when they refused to obey a police order not to turn away from the America's Center. They were charged with failing to obey a police officer.
Merritt worked the protesters into his sermon, saying they are examples of the nation's "culture war" going on in the nation.
"We love homosexuals," he said. "God loves homosexuals, but he loves them too much to leave them homosexuals."
Still, some Southern Baptists said Vines' comments could hurt efforts for Muslims and Christians to work together.
"That language is so offensive that it tears down any bridge we might have to speak to Muslims about Christianity," said Bruce Prescott, executive director of Oklahoma Mainstream Baptists, a moderate group.
Even some conservatives who agree with Vines' assessment had reservations about his statements.
Richard Land, director of the Southern Baptist Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission, said, "I agree with Dr. Vines: There is no way to salvation except through Jesus Christ." But Vines' language differed from what he would use, Land said.
Albert Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., said that Muhammad is a complex figure and that he did not know enough about his life to comment on the pedophile accusation.
Baptists have angered other religious groups with their statements and tactics. Some Baptist congregations prayed for the conversion of Muslims to Christianity during Ramadan, a period for religious observances in Islam.
Baptists distributed literature on how to convert Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, which they describe as "cults," in 2000.
In 1999, some Baptists publicly called for prayers during Jewish holy days for conversion of Jews to Christianity.
In other action Tuesday, Baptist moderates asked that Southern Baptist missionaries who were hired under older Baptist Faith and Message Statements be allowed to continue serving even if they refuse to affirm the newer, more controversial 2000 Baptist Faith and Message.
The requests were referred to the International Mission Board and the North American Mission Board, effectively killing them.
Another motion asked the Southern Baptist Convention to recognize only one state convention in each state. Texas, Virginia and Missouri have competing state conventions.
If approved, it could severely affect the Baptist General Convention of Texas, which is controlled by moderates. An alternative convention, the Southern Baptists of Texas, led by conservatives, is strongly supported by the national Southern Baptist Convention.
Staff writer Brett Hoffman contributed to this report.
Show me where in the Bible it calls for the forceful conversion of peoples. The Bible clearly states that it must be a Free decision, one reason Christians believe that all men must be free.
Don't give me this Crusades bit either, the Crusades where a military act of defense. They only came about after years of repeated incursions by Muslims into Christian territories. It is well documented the these Muslims Killed thousands of Christians and Jews before the first Crusade even started. Were there atrocities, yes. But it was a legitimate war and bad things happen during wars.
Also, by definition Christians do not kill for unwarranted reasons. These include self-defense, Nation wars and Capital punishment. All reasons any moral society accepts taking of a life.
The IRA is a political faction, it is motivated by politics and any attempt to paint it otherwise is religious baiting. What is Rome's stance on the IRA?
Those who do not learn from History are condemned to repeat it.
The following is from HERE
The first terrorist incident involves Muhammad's command to his followers to "kill any Jew that comes under your power".
From Guillaume, op cit, page 369:
"The apostle said, "Kill any Jew that falls into your power." Thereupon Muhayyisa b. Masud leapt upon Ibn Sunayna, a Jewish merchant with whom they had social and business relations, and killed him. Huwayyisa was not a Muslim at the time though he was the elder brother. When Muhayyisa killed him Huwayyisa began to beat him, saying, 'You enemy of God, did you kill him when much of the fat on your belly comes from his wealth?' Muhayyisa answered, 'Had the one who ordered me to kill him ordered me to kill you I would have cut your head off.'"
THE APOSTLE RECEIVES THE ORDER TO FIGHT
The apostle had not been given permission to fight or allowed to shed blood before the second Aqaba [a place where a pledge was made between Muhammad and his followers from Medina]. He had simply been ordered to call men to God and to endure insult and forgive the ignorant. The Quraysh [a leading group of Meccans] had persecuted his followers, seducing some from their religion and exiling others from their country. They had to choose whether to give up their religion, be maltreated at home, or to flee the country, some to Abyssinia, others to Medina.
When Quraysh became insolent towards God and rejected His gracious purpose, accused His prophet of lying, and ill treated and exiled those who served Him and proclaimed His unity, believed in His prophet and held fast to His religion, He gave permission to His apostle to fight and to protect himself against those who wronged them and treated them badly......[a]
The meaning is "I have allowed them to fight only because they have been unjustly treated while their sole offense against men has been that they worship God. When they are in the ascendant they will establish prayer, pay the poor-tax, enjoin kindness, and forbid iniquity, i.e., the prophet and his companions all of them." Then God sent down to him: "Fight them so that there be no more seduction," [b] i.e. until no believer is seduced from his religion. "And the religion is God's,", i.e. Until God alone is worshipped."
END OF QUOTE
[Note: two passages from the Quran are referenced: [a] Sura 22:39-41, which I did not quote, and [b] Sura 2:193]
Two critical points here:
1) in Mecca, where Muhammad was weak, he attacked no one. He only preached his religion and insulted the Meccan's religions. But it was just prior to his leaving for Medina, where he had a limited amount of armed men to support him, that he received this "revelation" and began to use violence to further his desires. Islamic history shows that as Muslims grew in power their forms of violence changed from criminal terrorism to outright warfare.
2) At the end of the quote, it says that Muslims are to fight those that do not worship Allah.
Ayatollah Khomeini, Mohammed's birthday, 1984
The Qur'an tells us: "not to make friendship with Jews and Christians" (5:51), "kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (2:191), "murder them and treat them harshly" (9:123), "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (9:5). The Qur'an demands that we fight the unbelievers, and promises "If there are twenty amongst you, you will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, you will vanquish a thousand of them" (8:65).
Institute for the Secularisation of Islamic Society
VSOB Day bump.
"Partly because he needed funds and partly because his followers were not skilled in agriculture as were the natives of Yathrib, [Mohammed] organized fighting bands to raid caravans. Having no ties with the older religions, he sent them out even in the peace months. This started Arabia's Holy War. Mohammed's whole movement took on the character of religious militarism. He made the Moslem fanatic fighters by teaching that admission to Paradise was assured for all those who died fighting in the cause of Allah."
In the end, Islam, which means "submission," is built upon older myths and was designed to usurp the power of Christians, Jews and women.
Well done! I believe you have nailed it down.
Now it is time to begin converting the good muslims to a true religion.
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