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There is NO Constitutionally Sanctioned Gun Control!
Sierra Times ^ | Deborah Venable

Posted on 06/12/2002 11:39:25 AM PDT by Sir Gawain

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1 posted on 06/12/2002 11:39:26 AM PDT by Sir Gawain
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To: *bang_list; Victoria Delsoul; Travis McGee; Squantos; harpseal; sit-rep; Noumenon; DCBryan1...
±
2 posted on 06/12/2002 11:40:09 AM PDT by Sir Gawain
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3 posted on 06/12/2002 11:40:42 AM PDT by Mo1
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To: Sir Gawain
Preach'n to the choir!
4 posted on 06/12/2002 11:41:42 AM PDT by Registered
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To: Sir Gawain
bang
5 posted on 06/12/2002 11:47:12 AM PDT by weikel
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To: Sir Gawain
Amen and Halleluiah!!
6 posted on 06/12/2002 11:47:57 AM PDT by cleancutguy
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To: Sir Gawain
Preach it, Bro!
7 posted on 06/12/2002 11:58:11 AM PDT by Eastbound
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To: Sir Gawain
I Agree!There Is No Constitutionally Sanctioned"Gun Control"!!Tell Me Where(In The Constitution)The Federal Gov't Has The Right To Seize Private Property If You Drive Over A"Snail Darter"Or>>>>>>>>>>>?????????????They Do It Just The Same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
8 posted on 06/12/2002 12:20:52 PM PDT by bandleader
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To: Sir Gawain
"So why do all the folks who claim to believe in Second Amendment rights still put the stupid qualifications on it? It is no darned wonder we are losing this battle! "

There's an easy answer to this, it's the same reason there are people who use the term "Separation of Church and State" when referring to the first amendment. Misinformation, and a lack of ability to take the time to actually READ precisely what the Constitution says. Instead they rely on others to "interpert" the "language" of the Constitution.

In other words, plain IGNORANCE!
9 posted on 06/12/2002 12:23:33 PM PDT by Rick.Donaldson
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To: Sir Gawain
The NRA, probably the most valuable tool against all-out gun grabbing we have, is so weighted down in political correctness that they are almost non-effectual on the issue. They do their wheeling and dealing to satisfy the liberal socialist agenda instead of steadfastly defending the intention of the Founding Fathers.

And precisely what do they get in return for their compromises? Nothing.

The NRA works so hard to be "moderate" (meaning always having a willingness to give the gun grabbers half of what they want this year and the other half next year instead of all at once), yet they are consistently painted as dangerous, foaming at the mouth, child-killing extremists by every reporter with a pen.

Hey, if they are going to execute you for a crime no matter what you do, you might as well commit it.

10 posted on 06/12/2002 12:29:43 PM PDT by hopespringseternal
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To: Sir Gawain
Wow, two truths in one day!!! First the Souther Baptist thrashing the "Demon possessed pedophile" and now this. The country continues to polarize to some seeking truth and others fighting for the lie.
11 posted on 06/12/2002 1:01:31 PM PDT by borntodiefree
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To: Rick.Donaldson
I have a hard time believing that Ted Olson and John Ashcroft are ignorant about the Second Amendment. Yet, the brief filed by the soliciter general on behalf of the government in the Emerson and that other, companion case said that the current position of the DOJ is that the Second Amendment is an individual right WHICH IS SUBJECT TO REASONABLE RESTRICTIONS.

They urged the Court to refuse Emerson and the other case, which it did. Poor Dr. Emerson will end up having a criminal record because of a routine, boiler-plate restraining order in his divorce case.

While Emerson is an important case, especially if you live in Texas, Louisiana, or Mississippi (5th circuit territory), if all that it means is that restrictions must be reasonable, well then courts rarely find that anything governments do is unreasonable.

After all, the Second Amendment doesn't say that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be unreasonably infringed.
12 posted on 06/12/2002 2:04:00 PM PDT by Iwo Jima
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To: Sir Gawain
bump
13 posted on 06/12/2002 2:30:04 PM PDT by lavaroise
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To: Sir Gawain


14 posted on 06/12/2002 2:35:30 PM PDT by It'salmosttolate
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To: Iwo Jima
Iwo Jima said: 'While Emerson is an important case, especially if you live in Texas, Louisiana, or Mississippi (5th circuit territory), if all that it means is that restrictions must be reasonable, well then courts rarely find that anything governments do is unreasonable. "

Actually, the Emerson ruling goes past that, I believe. IANAL, but the concept I have read is that of "strict scrutiny". Reasonableness, or being "rational", applies to all laws. They must be well-defined and must be crafted with the expectation that they accomplish a legitimate goal. "Strict scrutiny", however, is the criteria used to judge laws which affect rights. There is a burden on government to pass only legislation which addresses a "compelling interest" and the law must tread as lightly as possible on the right being infringed.

Emerson may yet get another day in court. The remand to the lower court means that Emerson will face trial. The trial judge will have to make decisions regarding the meaning of the law. Emerson will be able to challenge the details with regard to whether "strict scrutiny" will permit the law or not.

One area which will have to be covered are the circumstances under which Emerson regains his right to keep and bear arms. Where will the confiscated guns be? Who has the burden to care for them and return them to a person such as Emerson when he is no longer under a restraining order? To claim that this law treads lightly on the right to keep and bear arms but fails to protect Emerson's property, just because he "might" commit a crime while under a restraining order, is pretty hard for me to swallow.

If a person is imprisoned, then the government has an obligation to free him when his sentence is up. How is such an obligation carried out in cases like Emerson's. When does Emerson get a re-consideration of the restraining order so that he can have his guns back?

There are many hurdles yet to cross for the Lautenberg law and it may not, and should not, be able to cross them.

15 posted on 06/12/2002 3:35:57 PM PDT by William Tell
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To: Sir Gawain
What are three things each person can do to get full 2nd amendment rights restored in this country?
16 posted on 06/12/2002 3:57:15 PM PDT by sailor4321
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To: sailor4321
I'll bite. What?
17 posted on 06/12/2002 4:38:36 PM PDT by Iwo Jima
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To: William Tell
You raise many good points. The restraining order which gave rise to all of this conflict is, I fear, long since gone. Dr. Emerson is divorced, that case is over, and the judge cannot "do over" the restraining order.

One thing that I would like to see is an education project of divorce lawyers, divorce court judges, and divorcing parties that that "boiler plate" restraining order which they all asked to be signed means that a decent, law-abiding citizen could go to jail. Much of this agony could be averted if they knew that.

Every time a fella tells me that he is going through a divorce, I tell him "do you know that that 'routine' restraining order that is in your and everyone's divorce suit means that you are a felon if you possess a firearm?" They usually look at me as though I were daft and mumbled something along the lines of "I'm sure that my attorney would have told me that if that were the case." But of course they don't tell him because they don't know to; it never occurred to them.

If the parties involved knew that this was the repercussions of their actions, I think that they would all act differently.
18 posted on 06/12/2002 4:50:39 PM PDT by Iwo Jima
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To: Iwo Jima
Sorry everyone, but this article sure doesn't pass for analysis. It would make a great stump speech, but it is short on Constitutional muster.

The reason why Ashcroft and Olsen filed the brief they did, was because they actually read the entire 2nd Amendment, which was not quoted in this opinion rant. Does the writer need a building to fall on him to see that the Amendment specifically uses the phrase, "well-regulated?" That can't be ignored, just because we don't like it. (And I support gun rights and individual ownership, including concealed carry laws)

We will win our arguments not solely with passion, but with precision and logic. The "new" position of DOJ is correct. First, the Second Amendment is the only Amendment in the Bill of Rights that has been narrowly interpreted and has been considered a "group right." Of course, since the Bill of Rights are individual rights of the people, this judicial fallacy has never held water. Accordingly, an individual right must read broadly, and any goverment effort to curtail that right must be subject to strict scruitney.

Second, there is no question that the language of the Amendment permits regulation by the government. Sorry, we can't ignore the four corners of the Amendment.

I subscribe to the idea that militia in the context of the Amendment refers to all able bodied people, as the term was used at the time. Thus, the militia reference is consistent with the individual rights aspect. However, the right to regulate same is not cured by that analysis.

As for a REAL analysis of the arguments, I submit the following article: Guns and the Constitution

Prof. Eugene Volokh, UCLA Law School

(from the Wall St. J., April 12, 1999, p. A23)

A federal judge in Texas has just done something no federal court had done in more than 60 years: He held that the Second Amendment protects people's right to keep and bear arms. If this decision is affirmed by the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, the case has a very good chance of going to the Supreme Court, which hasn't yet resolved this issue. And behind the narrow Second Amendment matter lies a deeper question about the utility of a written Constitution.

As in many constitutional cases, the defendant -- Timothy Emerson, a San Angelo doctor -- isn't the best of fellows. During Dr. Emerson's divorce proceedings, his wife claimed he had threatened to kill her lover. The state divorce court apparently made no findings on this, but entered a boilerplate order barring Dr. Emerson from threatening his wife.

Though this state order said nothing about firearms, a little-known federal law bars gun possession by people who are under such orders. Dr. Emerson not only failed to dispose of his guns, as the law required, but eventually brandished one in front of his wife and daughter. He was then prosecuted under the federal law, though for gun possession rather than gun misuse.

The instinctive reaction here is that Dr. Emerson is the very sort we'd like to disarm, trouble waiting to happen. But when the divorce court issued its order, Dr. Emerson hadn't been found guilty of anything. Had he been convicted of a felony, all agree he would have lost his right to keep and bear arms as well as his right to remain at liberty. Here, though, there was no trial, no conviction, no finding of misconduct or future dangerousness. So when the federal law barred Dr. Emerson from possessing guns, he was a citizen with a clean record, just like you and me. Hence his Second Amendment defense.

The hot constitutional question is whether the Second Amendment protects only states' rights to arm their own military forces, or whether it protects an individual right. If the states-rights view is correct, Dr. Emerson could have been disarmed with no constitutional worries -- and so could anyone else. But the Second Amendment's text and original meaning pretty clearly show that it protects individuals. The text, which is reprinted nearby, says the right belongs to people, not states. And in the Bill of Rights "the right of the people" refers to individuals, as we see in the First and Fourth Amendments.

Moreover, the Second Amendment is based on the British 1688 Bill of Rights and is related to right-to-bear-arms provisions in Framing-era state constitutions. The British right must have been individual; there were no states in England. Same for the state constitutional rights; a right mentioned in a state Bill of Rights, which protects citizens against the state government, can't belong to the state itself. So in the Framing era, the "right to bear arms" meant an individual right.

What about the militia? The Second Amendment secures a "right of the people," not of the militia; but in any event, as the Supreme Court held in 1939, the Framers used "militia" to refer to all adult able-bodied males under age 45. Even today, under the 1956 Militia Act, all male citizens between 18 and 45 are part of the militia. (Women are probably also included, given the Supreme Court's sex-equality precedents.) "Well-regulated militia" in late 1700s parlance meant the same thing -- "the body of the People capable of bearing Arms," which is how an early propsoal for the amendment defined it. And the individual-rights view is the nearly unanimous judgment of all the leading 1700s and 1800s commentators and cases.

Based on this evidence, federal Judge Sam Cummings concluded Dr. Emerson's gun possession (though not his gun misuse) was constitutionally protected. If the Second Amendment is to be taken seriously, then Judge Cummings was right, and the other lower court cases holding the contrary were wrong.

If, that is, the Second Amendment is to be taken seriously. The notion of a written, binding Constitution tells us it should be, but cases like this lead some to wonder. Why, they ask, should today's decisions be bound by the dead hand of the past? If we have a "living Constitution" onto which courts may graft new rights, why can't they prune away obsolete ones?

These are genuinely tough questions, which go far beyond just the Second Amendment, and which have been raised in past controversies by conservatives as well as liberals. Let me give a few responses.

First, government entirely by the sometimes hyperactive hand of the present also has flaws. The benefits of liberties, however real, are often less visible than the costs. When we see Dr. Emerson before the court, accused of making violent threats, it's tempting to treat the right to possess guns as a nuisance. But we don't as easily see the hundreds of thousands of people who use guns each year in self-defense, including separating spouses who defend themselves against would-be abusers.

Second, modern innovations that restrict traditional liberties are often oversold. Realistically, people willing to violate laws against violent crime will rarely be deterred by laws against gun possession. Conversely, if Dr. Emerson is the poster child for why some shouldn't have guns, he is equally an example of how the law could effectively punish people for misusing guns (by brandishing them in a threatening way) rather than just for having them. Maybe ignoring the Constitution is neither so valuable nor so necessary.

Third, while some think gun rights are "obsolete," others disagree. Since 1970, 15 states have enacted new state constitutional rights to bear arms or strengthened old ones; 44 constitutions now have such provisions. In the mid-1980s, nine states let pretty much all law-abiding adults get a license to carry concealed weapons; now the number is 31. A conclusion that the right is obsolete thus doesn't rest on any unambiguous consensus; it can rest only on the judge's personal policy preferences. Do we trust judges that much?

And finally, do we trust judges to determine when other provisions -- the Establishment Clause, the privilege against self-incrimination, the jury trial, the freedom of speech -- become obsolete, too?

19 posted on 06/12/2002 5:02:58 PM PDT by Iron Eagle
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To: Iron Eagle
You are entitled to your opinion, lame as though it may be. I will reserve my responses to someone who has better insights.
20 posted on 06/12/2002 5:21:16 PM PDT by Iwo Jima
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