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To: justshutupandtakeit
Your beef with early America is really with our more Conservative society then. When you equate freedom with the suffrage, you make a monster leap. Personal freedom and the suffrage are two very different things. One involves the lack of restraint upon the exercise of free will--so long as you do not injure another (i.e. fail to exercise personal responsibility for your conduct). The other involves an egalitarian pursuit of universal suffrage. We have already noted that Libertarianism is a contending ideology against Egalitarianism. They are eternally in conflict.

As for the taxing to support State Churches, that was far less onerous than the present tax burden to support a Welfare State. One of the most revealing passages in Jefferson's Notes On The State of Virginia, written shortly before he persuaded the State Legislature to adopt religious freedom, shows how Welfare was administered through the Church in Virginia. It is worth reading. (You can find the passage quoted almost in its entirety in A Constitutional Overview.)

I find your comments about the slaveowners and the rich, far too redolent of the class antagonism promoted by the Socialist world over the past 200 years, for me to dignify it as a serious point. Perhaps you also reject the whole of Western Theology, because at its root is the Law written down by Moses after he came down from Mt. Sinai, which deals at some length with rules governing the practice of bondage, and rules protecting the acquisition and enjoyment of wealth? Your complaint is really a much broader attack on the human past than just on those Americans whose willingness to sacrifice everything, made your good life today possible.

William Flax Return Of The Gods Web Site

135 posted on 06/03/2002 3:16:42 PM PDT by Ohioan
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To: Ohioan
Those Americans who attempted preservation of slavery did nothing to make my life better today. Their treasonous defense of slavery using an ignorant and deluded class of poor whites cost our nation enormously and produced a lasting bitterness which exists to this day. The Slaveocrats willingness to destroy the American nation is one of history's blackest pages. Whether you dignify them with comments or not.

Much of the States' earlier history included many petty onerous controls of human behavior theoretically obnoxious to libertarians including jail for debtors as well as the long list I enumerated earlier which you preferred not to "dignify" by an attempt to deny their truth.

Of course, the freedom and liberty were to be safeguarded by the sufferage which is why there is a natural relation between liberty and sufferage no matter your sophistry in attempting to deny it. In fact, the Revolution was fought precisely because we had no sufferage which gave us a voice in Parliament.

We did not have a conservative society after the Federalists were driven out of office by the Jeffersonians. You might have a valid contention prior to 1800 but not after.

Recognition of facts with regard to the class structure does not make one a Marxist anymore than it did Hamilton. Blythe pretense that they did not exist and had no impact on social life in manifold ways is merely dishonest. In fact, today's class structural problems are atavistic holdovers of the creation and destruction of the Slaveocracy. My recognition of the fact that political power was held in a small minority of hands is indisputable and one would think abhorrent to a libertarian. As far as egalitarianism goes you can thank Jefferson for pushing that philosophy with all his ability as a propagandist. It was one of his greatest and most reprehensible lies in destroying Hamilton and the Federalists.

140 posted on 06/04/2002 7:26:07 AM PDT by justshutupandtakeit
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