Photos of Lindh Ordered Destroyed

LA times ^ | June 1, 2002 | RICHARD A. SERRANO, TIMES STAFF WRITER

[EggsAckley]

ALEXANDRIA, Va. -- The federal government acknowledged Friday that an untold number of U.S. military service members took "souvenir" photographs of John Walker Lindh during the first days of his captivity, but it added that the images were destroyed because they were taken without military approval.

Randy L. Bellows, an assistant U.S. attorney, made the acknowledgment during a hearing in federal court here in which Lindh's defense attorneys had hoped to obtain copies of the photographs and videos. The defense sought to use them as potential evidence that Lindh was intimidated and coerced into making allegedly incriminating statements to U.S. authorities after he was captured late last year fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan.

[Orion]

As far as I'm concerned, the moment you put the uniform on of another country, you are no longer an American, and should not get special treatment if captured.

I assume you would strip all the American Jews who served in the IDF of their citizenship. I doubt many would have the stones to do so, lest risking being called an anti-Semite.

Does anyone have any authoritative information on how one is stripped of their US citizenship. I'm not talking about what should be, or what you have read on FR, but someone who is educated on this subject. My understanding is you must give it up at an embassy on foreign soil. Any others?

[Orion]

He will never be 'free' again because he hated freedom and embraced tyrants.

The same could be said of Ron Dellums, and much of the hard-core left. They all live very comfortable lives. There are plenty of havens for malcontents in this country. Seattle comes to mind.

[csvset]

Here's an update on the other "American" jihadist, Yaser Esam Hamdi.

Terrorists must be exterminated, not incarcerated.

Source

Government appeals ruling on lawyer for Hamdi
By TIM MCGLONE, The Virginian-Pilot
© May 31, 2002

Yaser Esam Hamdi

NORFOLK -- The government has appealed a federal judge's decision allowing a lawyer to visit Yaser Esam Hamdi, the American-born Saudi resident captured alongside fighting Taliban forces.

The appeal, filed Friday afternoon, is the latest step in the government's fight to stop federal public defender Frank W. Dunham Jr. from seeing Hamdi over national security concerns.

This will be the third judge that government lawyers have asked to stop the meeting.

Dunham, acting on behalf of Hamdi's family in Saudi Arabia, is fighting for the man's release from the Norfolk Naval Station brig. Dunham argues that the government is holding Hamdi, who has not been charged with a crime, in violation of his constitutional rights.

U.S. District Court Judge Robert G. Doumar ruled on Wednesday that Dunham has a right to see Hamdi privately at the brig. But he gave the government until 1 p.m. today to file an appeal.

The appeal was filed with the Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit, which is directly under the U.S. Supreme Court. Dunham was then given two hours to file a reply. He said his staff was working on it late Friday.

The court was to then decide whether to issue a stay to Doumar's order, which would prevent Dunham from entering the brig.

A Fourth Circuit clerk said that decision could be made within hours. Sources involved in the case said an appeals court judge was to hold a conference call late Friday between the parties.

The appeal cites several reasons why Doumar's decision was wrong, including that it violates the president's constitutional functions as commander in chief in wartime.

``The district court's access order could result in substantial and irreparable harm,'' the appeal says.

It says a vital part of the military campaign is to gather reliable intelligence against ``an unconventional, unprincipled and savage enemy.''

Life-saving intelligence could be lost if Dunham is granted access to Hamdi, the papers say.

Dunham said he's mystified by the government's exhaustive effort to keep him away from Hamdi.

``I remain confounded by the earnestness with which they would pursue their efforts to try to keep this man from seeing a lawyer,'' he said. ``It makes you wonder what's going on.''

The government has yet to offer evidence to back up its claim that Hamdi was fighting with Taliban and al-Qaida forces in Afghanistan. The government has argued that, as a ``captured enemy combatant,'' he is not entitled to a lawyer and that the United States can hold him until the end of the undeclared war.

Hamdi, born in Louisiana and raised in Saudi Arabia, was a college student who traveled for the summer to a religious camp in Pakistan and then crossed the border into Afghanistan on a humanitarian mission.

There was great debate whether to appeal Doumar's decision among federal officials from the White House, Justice Department, the Defense Department and the U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia.

Some believe that the government's best shot is with the Fourth Circuit, which encompasses federal courts in Virginia, West Virginia, North and South Carolina and Maryland and is considered one of the most conservative courts in the country.

For example, the panel last year ruled that Miranda warnings -- the longstanding right of a suspect to remain silent and speak with a lawyer -- were not constitutionally guaranteed. The Supreme Court reversed the ruling.

But it's unclear which way the court will rule in this case.

Dunham could not say if he'll take the case to the Supreme Court if he loses in the Fourth Circuit.

Reach Tim McGlone at tmcglone@pilotonline.com or 446-2343.

[anniegetyourgun]

Yes, we have more than our share of those. Many of them live off my tax dollars.

[Squantos]

Maybe we should call Orkin versus the Porkin were taking now from goobermint beancounters charged with keeping such vermin at bay.........

Stay Safe !

[McGavin999]

What if he were fighting for the IDF or the French Foreign Legion? If we went to war with Isreal or France, would all the Americans be stripped of citizenship and killed without trial?

If it turned out that every other word out of the mouths of the Israelis or the French were "Death to America" the answer is yes. Look, it was not exactly a secret that they were plotting to kill Americans. He even admitted he was aware that plots were being hatched against America. He also knew of their attack against the Cole and he approved.

[archy]

A question for all of you. I don't approve of fighting for a country which is contrary to your citizenship. That includes France and, yes, even Isreal.

I concede your point regarding Israel, where I spent the 1973 War caught by circumstance. Since I was with an Israeli reservist pal, I agreed to go with him to his mobolization location and drive his car [taxicab] home to Haifa for him; instead upon arrival, he and I were sent out to pick up some of his fellow troopers who had called in from checkpoints and other military facilities needing rides- they were a bit shorthanded initially. I had a nice authorization letter from his battalion commander, countersigned by an Israeli brigadeer, all in Hebrew, which I could read maybe five words worth, and my *helpful* Israeli pals each gave me different translations when asked [*This guy is a spy. Shoot him...* was one so suggested....]

After a day or so of that, and moving trucks around, and fueling up lines of tanks and running their motors long enough to charge batteries, then refuel again, then check and replace batteries, we were eating the midday meal when his company commander joined us. Had I been in the US Army, he asked...yep. What had I done, *Tankist,* I replied, in both M60A1s and in M48's, like the ones they had....crew positions? All of 'em- loader, driver, gunner and tank commander. He looked at me like hungry wolves look at bunnyrabbits.

And so, since I knew the OVM equipment of the tanks, I got to break it out of the storage boxes and set it up for those vehicles for which a crewmember had not yet arrived: the toolbag, radio gear, two Browning .30 caliber and one .50 cal machineguns, and the main gun breechblock firing assembly for each tank of the 5 dozen there.... and I was pretty good at it, enough so that after we finished up, several of the tanks with just one crewman available were sent to fill in on other crews and I finished up theirs, as well. That night I was casually asked if I was familiar with the Uzi, and was given one- I showed I knew how to take it apart and put it back together, having used the German Army Uzis during my border tours there. They were afraid to put me out as one of their outside perimeter guards, but for watching the fuel dump, small arms ammo and mess supplies in camp, I would do, and I had a whistle that would attract about as much attention as a 25-round burst from the rattlegun. The next morning I was cleaning packing grease from 40 more Uzis that'd be ready as spares should any of the crewmen have failed to bring theirs along, and I thoughtfully also filled every magazine around the place so there'd be no shortage of them ready to go either. I wasn't of much use standing radio watch, and the Israelis had lost a US general in a previous war when a nighttime guard challenged him and he failed to respond in Hebrew. In Valhalla, perhaps he and General Stonewall Jackson are having quiet chats about such incidents.

As it turned out, the Jordanians never crossed their border where we were waiting for them: [though some joined in with the Syrian push, I understand] good thing, since we were told they had the best new M60A1s they could buy from the US at the time, outclassing the M48 a little bit, at least. And while I respect the professionalism and honour of the Royal Jordanian army as much now as I did then, I had serious concerns that the Arabs who had sworn to kill every Jew in sight and throw their bodies into the sea might be just a bit spotty on checking for American passports for my taste. Accordingly, I happily and unreservedly threw my lot in with my Israeli pals, and would have had no qualms whatsoever about going down fighting with them had it come to that, and I'm a VERY competent M48 gunner, happy so long as someone else runs the radio while I'm trying to shoot. Had there been Marines to evacuate all Americans and escort us to safety, swell I might have gone- or might not have. But in any event, that option just wasn't there, so I made the most of what was available to me.

As it worked out, I never fired a shot in anger, and I'm glad for that- I've had some pretty good times with Egyptian and Jordanian folks too, and I'd rather not have to kill any of them if they're not trying to do the same to me. But they might well have been.

That's a far cry from swearing allegiance to another state, or fighting against your own country's forces. And note that when joining the French Foreign Legion, the recruit does NOT swear allegiance to France- but to the Legion itself, to its officers and traditions and to his fellow Legionaires. That is not betrayal of one's homeland either, probably less so than allowing US troops to be placed under the operational control of foreign or international leaders is- if the US troops who have so evaded their oaths to this country are eligible to do so than so are other individuals not so affiliated.

You may well disagree with my opinions, based on that experience; you are welcome to. Once you have been in such a position and followed that course you think best, with your life in actual risk in such tense times, I'll give that opinion much more weight than I will otherwise.

-archy-/-

[onedoug]

[Orion]

Look, it was not exactly a secret that they were plotting to kill Americans. He even admitted he was aware that plots were being hatched against America. He also knew of their attack against the Cole and he approved.

I doubt he knew anything more than what rat to eat, and what hand to wipe his ass with. I doubt Al-Queida would confide all their biggest secrets with an American malcontent.

Let's separate fact from fiction.

As far as Isreal and France being "friendly" and that makes it OK...Walker joined the Afghan army/taliban when there was no state of war. What happens if we turn on France or Isreal? Do we shoot everyone who is in their military and US citizens? What if we go to war with the Phillipines? What do we do with all the Filipinos in the US military? If they are captured, would we insist they be treated according to the Geneva Conventions?

It's good sport to make Walker our "two minutes hate." If you are going to do that, think it through a bit more. He should be prosecuted under the laws exixting at the time he enlisted in their army. If he is a POW, then he gets POW treatment, just as we insisted the NVA treat our aviators who were bombing their country without a declaration of war.

[Orion]

There is no way for the government to strip a natural born citizen of his citizenship under the Constitution. Even treason of the highest order does not allow the government to take it away. You can probably give it up, but nope on the taking it away by the governement.

Thanks for the response. It seems that many FReepers think your citizenship goes at the whims of media hype. I do know that if you go to a US embassy in a foreign country, and renounce your citizenship, it is gone. I didn't think the gov't could strip you of your citizenship.

[mark_interrupted]

Execute him.

[McGavin999]

I totally disagree. If an American citizen joins a group, including a military, that has declared war on the US and doesn't leave, then he should lose his citizenship. Even if that enemy turns out to be either Israel or France.

Walker KNEW he would be fighting against Americans, that was the stated goal in the terrorist training camps. Sorry, I'm not buying what you're trying to sell.

[Orion]

If an American citizen joins a group, including a military, that has declared war on the US and doesn't leave, then he should lose his citizenship.

You emphasise should, whereas I emphasise 'does not.' I agree that Walker should be shot. However, he is entitled to either be treated as a POW in accordance with the Geneva Conventions, or given his day in open court, with a lawyer, and the power to compel witnesses to testify in his defense. This comes with citizenship, which he retains, whether you like it or not.

Afghanistan was not at war with the US when he went there. His intentions are for a jury of his peers (no military tribunal) to decide.

Sorry to trouble you with the Bill of Rights. Statists of all stripes hate it.

[McGavin999]

Well, I've read the Constitution too, and I disagree with you. I don't happen to think the man should be shot, I think he should have his citizenship revoked. There are certain responsibilities that go with citizenship. One of those is that you don't join the "other side" against your own country. Whether the Taliban was at war with the US when Jihad Johnnie joined up is not the point. The point is, there was every intention to kill Americans and he knew that. He had a choice, he made it. As far as I'm concerned that settles it.

The very best thing a jury of his peers (a misnomer since they will be American citizens) could do for his is to insist he leave this country, never to return. If they fail to do this, his life won't be worth a plug nickel. I would be willing to bet he'd be dead within a month.

[Orion]

I hate to rain on your statist parade, but the US gov't can't revoke citizenship. They did not with McVeigh, and he killed many more citizens than Walker. Absent any reference to laws regarding the revoking of citizenship, your wishes are just that - wishes.

The gov't can't have it both ways. We did not even bother to declare war on Afghanistan or Al-Queida. Walker gets a fair trial, by his citizen peers.

You can't refuse to accept the situation.

[McGavin999]

Yes, we can but actually, we don't have to. He renounced his citizenship when he took up arms against America.

A government that can grant citizenship can surely take it away when it's been shown that the person involved is dangerous to the country.

If they don't, he'll just be taken care of by the people. You think the Arab street is mean? HA!