Posted on 05/30/2002 8:16:46 AM PDT by xsysmgr
I vigorously dispute the allegation that women receive affirmative action in education. As a white woman, I can't think of any time where my educational opportunities were expanded or changed because I had two x chromosomes. I suspect that people tend to forward this view as a "smoke screen" for continuing affirmative action..."Well, but women benefit, too..." As if it's okay to discriminate, as long as we are only discriminate against white males!
Oh, yes! They work exactly the way people "think they do" and worse! While you contend that race "is only one factor" when schools take that "one factor" and make it the most important factor by giving people who happen to have that one factor a huge advantage, then it's disingenuous to say that it's only one factor.
I'm not buying the "one factor" argument, and I don't think anyone else on this forum will, either.
"I vigorously dispute the allegation that women receive affirmative action in education. As a white woman, I can't think of any time where my educational opportunities were expanded or changed because I had two x chromosomes."Sorry, I used the wrong word when I said "benefit". That's the Pro-AA stance, not mine. I want to get rid of AA. I should've used "suffer", but that sounds too much like we're victims of something. The point is, it's true that there are AA quotas for women, too. I've read that more white women qualify under AA than anyone else. So, do you suspect that the women you interview for a job are probably less qualified than the men? Many people do.
That's actually the problem. A minority student who would have been a star at USSB gets into Berkeley and struggles -- either dropping out or taking a wimpy major.
Yes, that's a problem as well.
Actually, whites often see such behavior among whites -- they call it "white trash". It's not accepted in middle-class white society, but I suspect that black society has not effectively differentiated black middle-class culture from underclass culture.
I suppose what ends up happening is that blacks who join the middle-class, end up adopting the white middle-class culture.
I encouraged him to attend a lesser school, and then transfer when he was ready.
In white society, those who display similar socially deviant attitudes and behaviors are marginalized and remain stuck in a relatively small lumpenproletariat or underclass. One thinks of England's soccer hooligans.
Members of groups outside of the traditionally white, primarily Anglo-Saxon, middle and upper middle classes, regardless of race, who wish to be accepted and attain the benefits of middle and upper middle class status must expect to conform to the attitudes and behavior norms appropriate for those classes. And, as with accents, it's almost harder because there are those of ill will who look for a 'slip', a reversion to former attitudes or behaviors, as a way to reject the upwardly mobile minorities. That's sad, but you can only ultimately change hearts with goodwill and behavior, not with demands and 'in your fac' behavior.
This is absolutely correct. Put another way, there ain't no broke people in Shaker! Kids I knew from there always went out of their way to give an image that they were from where I was (East Cleveland, err, the lower region of hell). It was so funny to me looking at these kids perp like they were "hard."
This is one area where American black parents and students are totally without excuse for failure.
Here, I'd like to mention a little of my background. Few in my family, before this generation, were educated in any real way. My family was what one might classify as the so-called "working class". But the more I got educated, the more I met people whose college and post-graduate education was assumed and not some sort of miracle.
I suspect that most educated and middle-class blacks have many close relatives who are very uneducated and it's hard to divorce their kids from some very bad elements.
lumpenproletariat
Is that a real word? I love it! Probably German.
Members of groups outside of the traditionally white, primarily Anglo-Saxon,
I'd disagree with that last one. The Italian, Irish, German (see screen name) and Jewish middle-class is (publicly) indistinguishable from the Anglo-Saxon one.
That's sad, but you can only ultimately change hearts with goodwill and behavior, not with demands and 'in your face' behavior.
"You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar," excellent point.
Oh, but it doesn't mean that I will refrain from trying!
Actuall, when I spoke of minority groups conforming to the values of the primarily Anglo-Saxon middle and upper middle classes, I had in mind the early 20th century experience of the Irish, Germans and Italians as well as the more recent experiences of Jews, Asians and now blacks and hispanics.
Yes, lumpenproletariat is a German word, a lovely one originating in Marxist/socialist writings in the late 19th century and used to distinguish the real dregs of society from the 'authentic' working class proletariat. Likewise lumpenintellectual.
Your comment on the different educational expectations of the various classes is apt and well-taken. When I was in high school, I was astonished that there were kids (other than the obvious thugs and their molls) who were not planning to go to college, let alone graduate school! In my own family, though we were hardly wealthy, college and professional education was taken for granted in one or more branches on both sides for hundreds of years. I had a good friend in grad school who was finishing his PhD, he was not only the first one in his family to go to college, but the first to finish high schoool. What a different perspective! How he valued his education!
Of course, I thought the bourgeoisie were supposed to be the eggs. I guess that's the idea of a Communist revolution. If you believe it's inevitable, then you'd better be on the leading edge of it!
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