Messianic Jews and Israel

arutzsheva | 5-14-02 | S. Alfassa Marks

[ET(end tyranny)]

What do you suppose this verse means?

Revelation 2:9
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

[crystalk]

ping

[sonserae]

Jesus was not a "Profit"...maybe you are thinking that he may have been a "Prophet"....big difference. Ha...In any case, this arguement is ludicrous...as many try to say "Jesus was a prophet or a wiseman"...but the fact is, He either was who he says he was, or he was mad. For he claimed to be God in the flesh. Anyone who claims to be God in the flesh either is God in the Flesh or a nut. If you want to read some great literature on this, read, "Betrayed" by Stan Telchin who is a Messianic Jew. Gives great information on all the prophesies Jesus fulfilled from the Old Testament concerning the Jewish Messiah. He fulfilled over 88. The statistics of him only fulfilling 8 of those are this:

Take as many silver dollars as to fill the state of Texas two feet high. Mark on one of them with a black marker. Blindfold someone and have them pick that marked silver dollar with only one chance. Again, those are the chances of Christ fulfilling only 8 of the prophesies. Not only did he fulfill 8, he fulfilled 88. When you tell a Jew to go back to THEIR holy scriptures and you prove this, they believe in Christ as their Savior...Most Jews don't know much about the holy scriptures and when you reveal the scriptures talking about Jesus in the Torah, it becomes very clear to them. Here are some examples:

Isaiah 7:14

Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. [ 7:14 [ Immanuel ] means [ God with us ] .

Isaiah 53

1 Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? 2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot, and like a root out of dry ground. He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him. 3 He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. 6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. 8 By oppression [1] and judgment he was taken away. And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. [2] 9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. 10 Yet it was the Lord 's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes [3] his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. 11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life [4] and be satisfied [5] ; by his knowledge [6] my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. 12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [7] and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [8] because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

[crystalk]

I know there are two verses in Rv that say what you say there, but I do not claim to authoritatively know what John was referring to: was it some group CTB in Judaism but not Christianity; or some group CTB in C but not J; or some group that was neither in fact, but claimed to be J? I have heard suggestions and guesses, including from my college teachers, by I have not heard anyone say for sure just what sect or group of the day John might have had in mind.

What I am afraid of, is that YOU do! And that could lead into the cultic, which I am trying to avoid certainly at least on this thread!

[drq]

"a new threat of spiritual terrorism has emerged in the form of ‘messianic congregations,’ whose theological tenets are identical to the Christian fundamentalists who created them. Their ultimate goal is the eradication of the Jewish people through assimilation to Christianity. "


So now leading someone into a personal relationship with Jesus Christ is "terrorism"?

[WVNan]

Thanks for the info. I'll check it out.

[WVNan]

Appears to be. At least in the mind of the writer of this garbage. The misinformation and errors in the article are too many to mention. The whole thing is totally wrong-headed and just plain ignorant.

[2sheep]

>Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

At the time that was spoken, all believers were Jews.  It refers to those who are "hypocrites" and who shall receive a hypocrite's reward.  Substitute the word "Christian" for "Jews" and it is understandable.

Matthew 15:7-9 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Job 13:16 He also shall be my salvation: for an hypocrite shall not come before him.

[crystalk]

Oh, no, back there about post #10 I used the expression "shlita" to refer to the certification that a person had the qualifications to serve as a rabbi. That of course ought to have been "smikha," ...

I am just a babe in Hebrew, but can already catch out some established "Christian" bible translations!..."shlita" refers to an eminent rabbi, a teacher of other rabbis, a scholar whose very name inspires awe.

And yes, yes, "sli-KHA" means "excuse me" as when a person my size tries to negotiate a narrow passageway in a public building...

[onedoug]

A fair number of rabbinical types have studied the Gospels across the centuries. A few have undoubtedly been converted. Some though, would definitely recongnize midrash, or a type of reworking of various forms to bring them into accord with earlier forms, such as the synoptic Gospels with earlier prophecy, here particularly with Isaiah. The Gospels display this too in each's appeal to a particular audience, such as Matthew to Jews where its geneology is so crucial, to particularly Luke's telling of the story to gentiles.

I believe in the Christian message. Though I can readily see that it possibly could be more fictional than historical as even given Josephus, good evidence for the latter case is really pretty thin.

[BenF]

Thanks for the bump.

[ET(end tyranny)]

Revelation 2:9
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

At the time that was spoken, all believers were Jews. It refers to those who are "hypocrites" and who shall receive a hypocrite's reward. Substitute the word "Christian" for "Jews" and it is understandable.

Really? It was written around 95CE. I think if John had meant christians, he would have written it that way. It's understandable JUST THE WAY IT IS WRITTEN. imho

Revelation 2:2
I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

[ET(end tyranny)]

I forgot. You are right about the hypocrit part.

[remaininlight]

My own opinion is that many Christians who love Israel were Jews in a past life. It all comes 'round again.

[Michael2001]

These guys views of Christians is not very different from the Klans view of Jews and Catholics.

[Michael2001]

There are also a few hundred thousand Christian immigrants from the former Soviet Union. The Jews need to realize that they are at war with a billion Muslims who hate them and they better accept Christians as their allies; many have, I've known them personally when I was in Israel; but unfortunately, many still do not.

[monkeyshine]

Ping

[2sheep]

>It's understandable JUST THE WAY IT IS WRITTEN. imho

By your standard then, when Jesus said the following, you understand it to mean to bite his arm and drain his blood and drink it.

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

[Jeremiah Jr]

The last verses of the TaNaKh

2 Chronicles 36

¹⁵ And the LORD God of their fathers sent warnings to them by His messengers, rising up early and sending them, because He had compassion on His people and on His dwelling place. ¹⁶But they mocked the messengers of God, despised His words, and scoffed at His prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against His people, till there was no remedy.
¹⁷Therefore He brought against them the king of the Chaldeans, who killed their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion on young man or virgin, on the aged or the weak; He gave them all into his hand. ¹⁸And all the articles from the house of God, great and small, the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king and of his leaders, all these he took to Babylon. ¹⁹Then they burned the house of God, broke down the wall of Jerusalem, burned all its palaces with fire, and destroyed all its precious possessions. ²⁰And those who escaped from the sword he carried away to Babylon, where they became servants to him and his sons until the rule of the kingdom of Persia, ²¹to fulfill the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her Sabbaths. As long as she lay desolate she kept Sabbath, to fulfill seventy years.


The Proclamation of Cyrus
²² Now in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, that the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, the LORD stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, so that he made a proclamation throughout all his kingdom, and also put it in writing, saying,


²³Thus says Cyrus king of Persia:
4 All the kingdoms of the earth the LORD God of heaven has given me. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem which is in Judah. Who is among you of all His people? May the LORD his God be with him, and let him go up!


Compare with Matthew 22:1-14
Yom Melech HaMashiach

[2sheep]

Someone wrote about Israel that there are 4 million people there and 8 million opinions.  Certainly it would seem that Israel could do with less Muslim suicide-bombers and more people who would support them regardless of the addition of some Christians who hold every wind of doctrine.

As you know, there are among Christians many who hold the false doctrine of Replacement Theology (believing Christians replaced the Jews), who exalt themselves above the Jews although they were commanded not to do so in Romans 11.  The admonition was to not "boast against the branches" lest ye be cut off.  Nevertheless, many do.  That has been discussed many times on other threads.

Here is a couple of links from a Messianic site that describes the difference between Messianics who are returning to Judaism and those who are merely Christianized and hold the apostate doctrines of many Christian denominations.  There is a HUGE difference!

We are NOT Jews for Jesus

What is Messianic Judaism - Isn't it Just Christianity?