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To: Ohioan
The "Vichy" charge is a bit ridiculous...

But it is one that makes me uncomfortable. French, Vichy, police were very active in rounding up French jews for deportation. That is a chapter in French history that should be cause for some national introspection. What is Le Pen's nuanced view of that era?

Like a lot of conservatives, I am sympathetic to anyone who is the butt of leftist, irrational, attacks. But I have held back from defending him until I understand precisely what kind of man he is.

16 posted on 05/14/2002 3:49:44 PM PDT by marron
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To: marron
But it is one that makes me uncomfortable. French, Vichy, police were very active in rounding up French jews for deportation. That is a chapter in French history that should be cause for some national introspection. What is Le Pen's nuanced view of that era?

The easy answer to your point is the simple truth. I do not know what Le Pen's nuanced view of that era may be. I am not a student of Le Pen. My comments are simply based upon what has been printed recently in a variety of places, which I recognized as involving typical Leftwing distortions of logic, such as I have witnessed used repeatedly in the past over many years, against decent patriotic men who loved their countries and their people.

But while I do not know the answer to your question, I will address the problem that it touches upon. There is an inherent vulnerability in any movement--right or left--if your opponents can tar you by associations, with ideas or associates, who are questionable or worse. There is almost no one who cannot be challenged on this basis. Let me give you some not so well remembered examples:

After World War II, the American Armed Forces helped round up a huge numbers of refugees from Communism, who had fought with the Germans, and sent them back to certain death in Stalin's Russia. This operation was so cruel, that it led to accusations that Generals Marshall and Eisenhower were actually Communist sympathizers. While I do not believe for one moment that that accusation was true, it was an ugly episode, that has been largely ignored since. (On the other hand, it was justified on the basis that these people were Russian and Ukranian Nationals, who had fought against their homeland, which had been our wartime ally. That explanation, under ordinary circumstances might make sense, until you realize that Stalin had orchestrated the murder of perhaps as many as 10,000,000 Russian and Ukranian farmers before the War, and these people had seen the Germans not as enemies of Russia and the Ukraine, but as possible liberators.)

There are also cases, in our own domestic history, when otherwise very good and decent American leaders, really did look the other way, while some very nasty things were done to American Indian Tribes. We don't really like to talk about that, but it sometimes happened. Does that put those otherwise decent leaders beyond the pale? Or should we limit the blame for atrocities to those who actually committed them?

The Vichy era is one subject to various interpretations; which means that at the time, those collaborating or initiating the Vichy Government had many different motives. Do you blame all of them because the Police, with what up until that point had just demonstrated itself to the most effective land based army in the world a few miles away--we are talking about 1942 now--in a position to take over at any time--cooperated with a despicable Nazi pogrom?

And the other question is this. Whatever your personal ideas on what happened under Vichy, does that--should that--mean that one seeking office in France almost 60 years later, should be disqualified, because he had some association with someone who had identified with Vichy? It is widely understood that the previous Socialist President Mitterand, did have Vichy ties, for example. The issue is not so simple.

For another example, have you seen the absurd attribution of Nazi sympathies to President Bush's Grandfather--the very Liberal Republican Senator from Connecticut, Prescott Bush--because he had close business relations with German firms in the 1930s? This association business, when the spin-masters take hold of it, can be truly vicious. Get too deeply into it, and after a while, you may find yourself unable to trust anyone.

It is surely better to give one the benefit of the doubt, and accept that the platform on which he runs, is in fact his platform. (I know that that is not satisfactory either, for we all know politicians do not always keep their promises; but it should tell us more than trying to look under 60 year old rocks.)

17 posted on 05/14/2002 4:24:27 PM PDT by Ohioan
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