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Newton's Constant -- Not So Constant?
Newswise ^ | 5/8/2002 | Mike Martin

Posted on 05/08/2002 7:29:49 AM PDT by Nebullis

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To: KayEyeDoubleDee
See the link at post#5.

My dear fellow, I did do as you suggested, and my head still hurts. However, nowhere in there did I find anything to back up the journalist's claim that the pull you feel when you "swing a bucket of water at the end of rope" is caused by centrifugal force, which is merely a convenient layman's notion, or so I was told in school.

More importantly, the journalist reporting on Gestheyn's findings wrote that "These [centrifugal] forces result from the combined gravitational pull of all the distant stars and planets, Austrian physicist Ernst Mach wrote." I never doubted that there is a "combined gravitational pull of all the distant stars and planets": this has always seemed a given to me because there is no range limitation to gravitational force. However, I always believed that for practical purposes, we earthlings need only take into account the gravitational force exerted by the Earth, the Sun and the Moon. What the journalist is suggesting is the exact opposite.

But as we all know, journalists never lie.

They also tell us that Clinton was a great president and that GWB is an uneducated moron, which I naturally have always taken for the gospel truth.

But if this journalist is not telling the truth then...

Oh my! Please say it isn't so.

41 posted on 05/08/2002 6:51:47 PM PDT by tictoc
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To: Nebullis
Thanks for the ping!
42 posted on 05/09/2002 5:32:26 AM PDT by Scully
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To: tictoc
However, nowhere in there did I find anything to back up the journalist's claim that the pull you feel when you "swing a bucket of water at the end of rope" is caused by centrifugal force, which is merely a convenient layman's notion, or so I was told in school.

Right, my understanding is that the force you feel is the force you exert towards the center in order to draw the bucket out of its desired straight path. Note that the direction of force (inwards) is the same as the direction of the acceleration (that being the 2nd derivative of the position as a function of time)

s(t) = ( cos(t), sin(t) )
v(t) = s'(t) = ( -sin(t), cos(t) )
a(t) = s''(t) = ( -cos(t), -sin(t) )

43 posted on 05/09/2002 8:46:19 AM PDT by KayEyeDoubleDee
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To: KayEyeDoubleDee
If you like cosines, here is the dotted line on my loan agreement. Thanks, pal.

Sorry - couldn't help myself :-)

44 posted on 05/09/2002 10:40:44 AM PDT by tictoc
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To: Physicist; RadioAstronomer; ThinkPlease; edwin hubble; PatrickHenry; VadeRetro
It has been known for a few years that there is an anomalous anisotropy in the polarization of the cosmic microwave radiation background.

But for "G" to be non-invariant with respect to direction, it would seem that there would have to be a corresponding anisotropy in the matter distribution of the Universe. But as far as I know, no such anisotropy has been observed.

What gives?

45 posted on 05/09/2002 11:14:29 AM PDT by longshadow
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To: longshadow
What gives?

I'm glad I never comitted the value of G to memory.

46 posted on 05/09/2002 11:54:30 AM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: longshadow
But for "G" to be non-invariant with respect to direction, it would seem that there would have to be a corresponding anisotropy in the matter distribution of the Universe.

Sounds good to me. Things should be more scrunched up along the axis where the pull is stronger. And they're not that anyone's said so far.

47 posted on 05/09/2002 12:21:40 PM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: VadeRetro
Why couldn't there be small variations that average out in the large scale observations/structure.
48 posted on 05/09/2002 1:34:02 PM PDT by KayEyeDoubleDee
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To: longshadow
But for "G" to be non-invariant with respect to direction, it would seem that there would have to be a corresponding anisotropy in the matter distribution of the Universe. But as far as I know, no such anisotropy has been observed.

It's not clear to me that an anisotropic G would lead to any anisotropy in the distribution of matter. But if it did, the matter distribution would have been used to set a limit on the anisotropy of G. Presumably this experiment was more sensitive than any existing limit, else it wouldn't have been mounted.

49 posted on 05/09/2002 1:42:53 PM PDT by Physicist
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To: tictoc
You're right. The correct term is centripetal force.
50 posted on 05/09/2002 1:51:17 PM PDT by Keme
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To: Nebullis
"Exactly the right amount of wild ellipicality" bump.
51 posted on 05/09/2002 1:56:51 PM PDT by apochromat
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To: Nebullis
So maybe there is something to astrology ...
52 posted on 05/09/2002 2:26:57 PM PDT by Junior
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To: Physicist
It's not clear to me that an anisotropic G would lead to any anisotropy in the distribution of matter.

My thinking was that if the initial condition were an isotropic matter distribution AND an anisotropy for the gravitational constant, then one would expect over time that matter would preferentially cluster around the direction of maximum "G" value, thus resulting in a matter distribution anisotropy.

53 posted on 05/09/2002 2:28:50 PM PDT by longshadow
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To: KayEyeDoubleDee
Why couldn't there be small variations that average out in the large scale observations/structure.

My reaction is that matter either averages somewhat denser viewed in one direction than in another or else it doesn't. But not too many people are agreeing with longshadow and me that the problem should produce so visible a result.

Perhaps the problem is that a 0.054 percent difference just doesn't model out to be enough to produce visible effects.

Anyway, the one thing people agree on is that this area needs more study. Does the max gravity perhaps lie along our galactic plane, with the peak toward the center? If not, where and what is the anisotropy producting the difference in G?

54 posted on 05/09/2002 2:56:00 PM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: longshadow; PatrickHenry
Maybe it's a more conventional gravitational anomaly, like a powerful black hole in our neighborhood sneaking up on us. By the time we notice its lensing effect in the sky, it'll be too late. (OK, I mean, what are we going to do anyway?)
55 posted on 05/09/2002 2:58:43 PM PDT by VadeRetro
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To: longshadow
that matter would preferentially cluster around the direction of maximum "G" value

I'm having trouble visualizing that.

56 posted on 05/09/2002 3:02:46 PM PDT by Physicist
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To: longshadow
It would be flattened along the strongest axis, barring any interference to that.
57 posted on 05/09/2002 3:36:59 PM PDT by apochromat
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To: longshadow
"Flattened" like a tangerine has a short axis compared to an orange.
58 posted on 05/09/2002 3:38:38 PM PDT by apochromat
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To: Nebullis
This would indicate that the mass distribution outside the solar system is not as even as it appears, I'd say. I don't suppose this effect could be pointing toward the galactic center. Maybe there's an error.
59 posted on 05/09/2002 3:48:16 PM PDT by apochromat
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To: VadeRetro
Maybe it's a more conventional gravitational anomaly, like a powerful black hole in our neighborhood sneaking up on us. By the time we notice its lensing effect in the sky, it'll be too late. (OK, I mean, what are we going to do anyway?)

You want me to save the world again? I'm already fully engaged on the other thread.

60 posted on 05/09/2002 4:31:57 PM PDT by PatrickHenry
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