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SMALLER CLASSES (IN FLA) COULD COST $12 BILLION
The St. Petersburg Times | May 8, 2002 | Anita Kumar

Posted on 05/08/2002 5:41:05 AM PDT by floriduh voter

CAPTION: Backers of the proposal say the number is just an estimate, and if the ballot carries a price tag, it could be different.

TALLAHASSEE -- Supporters of a move to force the Legislature to reduce class sizes in Florida public schools released the first estimate of how much that would cost: $8-billion to $12-billion. That amounts to about a half-cent of sales tax statewide each year.

The state Legislature would be responsible for finding the money if the measure makes it to the November ballot and voters approve. Supporters of the citizen initiative said they are "not afraid of having a full and public debate about the figure," said Mark Herron, a lawyer and lobbyist for the Coalition to Reduce Class Size.

No detailed study has been conducted to determine the cost of the proposal.

The new estimate emerged Tuesday during a Senate committee hearing on a bill that would require price tags to be placed on every citizen initiative. The cost voters would see, however, would be determined by a group of state officials who periodically estimate how much revenue the state will raise.

Gov. Jeb Bush, who has expressed serious reservations about the class size amendment, asked lawmakers at the last minute to require price tags for citizen initiatives.

Herron, who testified about the bill Tuesday before the Senate Ethics and Elections Committee, gave the estimate in response to a question. Later, when questioned how the state would pay for smaller classes, Herron said: "If you have to raise taxes, then so be it."

The committee approved the bill 8-2. The full Senate takes up the bill today. The House approved a similar measure that differs from the Senate version. "People voting on it deserve to know what it's going to cost," Daniel Woodring, a lawyer in the governor's office, told senators Tuesday.

But opponents say the measure would discourage voters from approving expensive proposals, like the multibillion-dollar high-speed rail system that passed overwhelmingly two years ago. Lawmakers want a price tag to be included with all citizen-led constitutional amendments in November, including a universal prekindergarten program, a ban on smoking in restaurants and other workplaces and reducing class sizes.

The Coalition to Reduce Class Size still needs to gather more than 250,000 signatures before Aug. 6 to get the question on the Nov. 5 ballot. The group has collected 225,000 of the 488,000 signatures needed.

The coalition, led by Sen. Kendrick Meek, D-Miami, based its number on a 2000 legislative analysis. This year, the Board of Education estimated it would cost $2.3-billion, but officials there now say that number is wrong. Derek Newton, the coalition's executive director, cautioned that the price tag Herron cited was merely an estimate. "We don't necessarily agree with the entire assessment, but it's the only number that's been put on paper," he said.

Wayne Blanton, head of the Florida School Boards Association, has estimated it could cost $4-billion to $5-billion in initial construction costs for new classrooms, and almost $1-billion to pay for 10,000 to 12,000 new teachers.

A recent St. Petersburg Times/Miami Herald poll shows that 78 percent of voters would support the amendment. Nearly three of every four voters say they would limit the number of students in a class, "even if it means having to pay higher taxes," which the proposed amendment does not address.

If the bill passes, the state Revenue Estimating Conference, which calculates how much tax revenue the state will generate, will come up with the cost for implementing all citizen-led amendments. Starting in July 2003, the conference's estimate would be subject to review by the Florida Supreme Court and would apply to all amendments regardless of whether they were proposed by citizens, the Legislature or the Constitutional Revision Commission.

"I'm not sure why it is a necessity this year," said Sen. Buddy Dyer, D-Orlando, who voted against it. The Legislature has placed a measure similar to Bush's proposal on the Nov. 5 ballot, but it applies only to future initiatives.


TOPICS: Activism/Chapters; Culture/Society; Free Republic; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: California; US: Florida; US: South Dakota; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: classsize; florida; governorrace; janetreno
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Fellow Floridians and fellow Americans, on the surface, this front page news in the St. Pete Times today looks like just another "class size" story. Exactly how big an issue is this really?

Please pay close attention to the lobbyist for The Coalition to Reduce Class Size. It's none other than MARK HERRON, Janet Reno's campaign lawyer. Further, this initiative in my opinion is nothing more than the dems attempt to draw Governor Bush into the class size argument but indirectly. JANET RENO's name doesn't even come up in this article. The author certainly knows that Mark Herron is Reno's campaign lawyer but fails to provide her readers with this relevant fact.

Please see floriduh voter's profile page re: Mark Herron is JR's campaign lawyer. If I forgot to bookmark it, freepmail me and I'll put the link here.

He's the great American (sarcasm) who worked with Algor to challenge absentee military ballots in the recount phase of the POTUS election in Florida.

Finally, the following words should make your coffee go cold. Mark Herron who is a legal challenger, NOT A LEGISLATOR wants to raise our taxes "If you have to raise taxes, so be it." A detailed study has not been conducted to determine the cost of this program. Why? Because IMO, this is not really a ballot initiative - it's a campaign initiative for JR.

I can't even begin to discuss the legal issues involved here without having to stick my head in my freezer to revive myself. Please ping your pals and keep this BTTT because we are in the early stages of Janet Reno's antics.

FR member attorneys are invited to address the legal gray areas of lobbying for a ballot initiative and being Reno's campaign lawyer concurrently. Perfectly legal?

1 posted on 05/08/2002 5:41:06 AM PDT by floriduh voter
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To: floriduh voter; summer
Nice catch bump.
2 posted on 05/08/2002 5:48:12 AM PDT by Tijeras_Slim
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To: floriduh voter
Missing info:
How large are the current class sizes?
What size do they want to reduce them to?
3 posted on 05/08/2002 5:53:05 AM PDT by Willie Green
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To: Tijeras_Slim
You are no. 1. Thanks for stopping by.
4 posted on 05/08/2002 5:55:10 AM PDT by floriduh voter
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To: floriduh voter
I hate to say it, but smaller class sizes REALLY are better for teaching kids. That's just a simple fact of life. But a bill like this sounds like so much ill-concieved methods to try to achieve good results, with far too high a price tag...
5 posted on 05/08/2002 5:55:39 AM PDT by WyldKard
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To: Willie Green
Missing info: How large are the current class sizes? What size do they want to reduce them to?

I believe that I have heard that the average class size is 30-35 students. Thats pretty small if you ask me. My private school had classes that size.

Im not sure what they are trying to lower it to.

IMHO, we Floridians need to vote this down.

6 posted on 05/08/2002 5:57:53 AM PDT by FreeTally
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To: floriduh voter
Maybe they can build classrooms on the bullet train - we can't pay for that either!
7 posted on 05/08/2002 5:58:54 AM PDT by EllaMinnow
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To: Willie Green
They've been building NEW SCHOOLS all over the place since Jeb became governor. I am not an educator, but once I ping Florida, maybe they can provide some data for you. This reminds me of mediscare campaign rhetoric. The coalition didn't even bother to do a study but they want the issue.
8 posted on 05/08/2002 5:59:27 AM PDT by floriduh voter
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Comment #9 Removed by Moderator

To: summer;kinganamort;afraidfortherepublic;cake_crumb;davidosborne;seekthetruth;bigwavebetty;kayak...
Ping. Go, Jeb, go. Thanks to you and the legislature for all the new schools that look like hotels. Portables are disappearing. That's the positive message!
10 posted on 05/08/2002 6:06:00 AM PDT by floriduh voter
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To: floriduh voter
They could pass a bill mandating a 10% reduction of students in public schools, forcing that 10% percent to seek private or homeschooling alternatives. Problem solved, no extra money needed. </dreaming>
11 posted on 05/08/2002 6:08:51 AM PDT by Brett66
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To: mijo
And, any poll done by the St. Pete Times/Miami Herald is going to be skewed. They ask questions until the final question, at which point, they have "led the witness" so to speak; like the salesman who comes to my house and shows me his sales presentation in a flashy notebook, turns the pages and has me saying yes until, I almost buy something I don't need.
12 posted on 05/08/2002 6:12:04 AM PDT by floriduh voter
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To: WyldKard;all
Exactly. But I think they didn't do a study in the first place because an independent study would show that classroom sizes ARE reasonable in Florida.

The last five teachers of the year are all Jeb supporters: 1998, 1999, 2000 and 2001. You can email them individually and check out their bios at www.jeb.org by clicking on the Educators button on the left. Someone here may wish to do so and report back to us later in the week. I have to take mom to the dentist.

Thanks for stopping by.

13 posted on 05/08/2002 6:35:38 AM PDT by floriduh voter
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To: Brett66
Not an expert in education, but I believe that school administration is top heavy and individual school boards are beginning to reduce staff here and there.

Additionally, consideration has been given to reducing the salaries of school board members.

14 posted on 05/08/2002 6:38:49 AM PDT by floriduh voter
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To: floriduh voter
"I'm not sure why it is a necessity this year," said Sen. Buddy Dyer, D-Orlando

b/c high school graduation rates in florida are among the lowest in the nation.

15 posted on 05/08/2002 6:50:51 AM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: floriduh voter
GO JEB!!
16 posted on 05/08/2002 7:01:19 AM PDT by mafree
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To: stainlessbanner;;seekthetruth;summer;juliernr21
Work on dropout rates is ongoing. Change is not going to happen overnight.

It's worth noting that upon dropping out, many former students return to adult classrooms to obtain their GEDS or to start one of many on the job training programs, because they realized that THEY a big error in judgment by dropping out in the first place.

Do we make a law forcing them to stay in school against their wishes?

17 posted on 05/08/2002 7:03:01 AM PDT by floriduh voter
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To: floriduh voter
Florida does not have a good track record on public education - the books clearly show that.
18 posted on 05/08/2002 7:10:52 AM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: floriduh voter
"That amounts to about a half-cent of sales tax statewide each year."

Why is everyone getting so excited over a half-cent increase? What's the big deal in paying an extra half-cent? You Floridians are really cheap!(my impression of Rosanne Rosannadanna).

19 posted on 05/08/2002 7:27:17 AM PDT by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen;all
Initiatives always come in higher than early estimates and this is a vote getting measure in actuality.

Please take into consideration just some of the stadiums in Florida that are paid for by taxpayers via their property taxes. Hillsborough County i.e. Tampa Bay Bucs, Lightning Hockey Arena, Pinellas County i.e. Tropicana Field (remember the Devil Rays?).

By the way, the St. Pete Times tucked an additional story in their paper today and I think a reduction of class size to 22 per class is RIDICULOUS. Once I scanned the second story, I can see this is a jobs for teachers initiative, it has NOTHING to do with educating even one child. I would like someone who ever attended a class with only 22 students in it to step forward and give your account. There is nor was there ever such a classroom, unless you are from a rural community - one room schoolhouse. Beyond that, I respect ALL free republic registereds - certainly, you are entitled to your opinion.

Only pet peeve is election year straying off topic - which I am not accusing you of here.

What next classroom size of FIFTEEN? This is a jobs for teachers initiative to get votes for the democrats because the teachers' unions are starting to fragment here in Fla.

20 posted on 05/08/2002 10:18:33 AM PDT by floriduh voter
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