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Israelis blast church with invisible weapon
The Daily Telegraph via smh.com.au ^ | 16 April 2002 | Alan Phillips

Posted on 04/16/2002 1:49:54 PM PDT by history_matters

Israelis blast church with invisible weapon

By Alan Philps in Jerusalem
April 16 2002
Daily Telegraph, London

Getting an earful ... loudspeakers held up near the Nativity Church pump out the noise. Photo: AFP,

The Israeli Army is broadcasting ear-splitting screeches and wails at the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, traditional site of Jesus' birth, to force out 200 Palestinians besieged there.

Troops brought in a crane to hoist loudspeakers over the ancient basilica, one of the holiest shrines in Christendom, as part of what one person inside called "psycho terror". One of the noises sounds like a car alarm.

Camped outside the church, the army estimates there are about 50 wanted Palestinian militants inside, with clergy and civilians.

The Israeli Government offered a deal on Sunday under which the wanted men would be given a choice between permanent exile and trial before a military court. "If they leave, it's for good but, if they stay, then they will have to stand trial in Israel," said a spokesman for the Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon. The offer was put by the US Secretary of State, Colin Powell, to the Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat, during talks on Sunday.

Palestinian negotiators immediately rejected it, saying the men would not accept exile, and if they were to be judged it should be before a Palestinian court. But they would accept any deal that Mr Arafat approved.

In an appeal on Friday the trapped Palestinians called for United Nations intervention to save them from "a slow death".

They have been deprived of food for almost two weeks, and the army has shot at Palestinian youths lobbing bags of bread into the compound.

"We are hearing loud whistles and screeches in the daytime and now at night," said the Governor of Bethlehem, Mahmoud Madani, who is inside the church. "They want to destroy our morale, but the only solution is a negotiated settlement."

The church has responded to the caterwauling by ringing its bells.

In a major blow to the Palestinian resistance, Israel last night arrested Marwan Barghouthi, a leader of Yasser Arafat's Fatah faction in the West Bank and regarded by Israel as the top militant in the area, Israeli security sources said.

Barghouthi, sought by Israel since it launched a West Bank offensive on March 29, was arrested in the city of Ramallah, the sources said.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bethlehem; catholic; catholiclist; christianlist; church; holyland; holynativity; idf; israel; jesuschrist; orthodox; pa; palestine
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
This is where the illogic jumps out at you. There are hundreds - thousands - of suicide bombers and gunmen to replace the ones in the Church of the Nativity. If Israel was interested in their own real security and long-term diplomatic interests, they would pull back and let the Palestinian gunmen in the Church leave without incident.

Your post was so concise and on target I thought it should be posted again and again.

101 posted on 04/16/2002 4:15:10 PM PDT by history_matters
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To: history_matters
Thank you for bringing the second page back on topic. Forgive me for going off.
102 posted on 04/16/2002 4:17:11 PM PDT by Askel5
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Comment #103 Removed by Moderator

To: Askel5
I always value your posts and am grateful for the time you take to share information that some of us might not have seen otherwise. No need to apologize.
104 posted on 04/16/2002 4:20:25 PM PDT by history_matters
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To: history_matters
Okay, thanks.

(N.B. It should be remembered that I'd be linking my Belloc piece on militant Islam as a caveat to ALL I say ... save for the fact some resident dimwits started up some facetious religious argument and got it deleted.)

105 posted on 04/16/2002 4:23:23 PM PDT by Askel5
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To: history_matters
Just as an exercise in curiosity - how do the strict constuctionist civil libertarians square U.S. financial aid to Israel and the "separation of church and state"? We don't seem to hear too much about this. (We could include aid to Muslim countries as well...)
106 posted on 04/16/2002 4:24:55 PM PDT by HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
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To: Askel5
I sincerely wish you would repost that brilliant Belloc piece. God bless!
107 posted on 04/16/2002 4:30:43 PM PDT by history_matters
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To: viadexter
An absolutely excellent book -- good for all Catholics to read too because there is so much disinformation out there today.
108 posted on 04/16/2002 4:31:44 PM PDT by history_matters
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To: HowlinglyMind-BendingAbsurdity
An excellent question.
109 posted on 04/16/2002 4:33:11 PM PDT by history_matters
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To: tracer
Christmas carols sung by Barbara Streisand

I had to grow up listening to those...borderline child abuse :)

110 posted on 04/16/2002 4:43:44 PM PDT by PianoMan
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Comment #111 Removed by Moderator

To: viadexter
"According to whom-- Goldhagen?"

Why does the Holocaust come to mind? Hmmm...

Why don't I read Zolli's book? Because I don't have time to read Catholic books anymore. History is enough for me.

The Holocaust and the Catholic Church

112 posted on 04/16/2002 4:50:25 PM PDT by PetiteMericco
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To: history_matters
Anything by Tiny Tim would result in my immediate surrender.
113 posted on 04/16/2002 4:50:32 PM PDT by The Brush
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To: viadexter
Eugenio Zolli, BEFORE THE DAWN

The above link is to Amazon.

114 posted on 04/16/2002 4:51:20 PM PDT by history_matters
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To: history_matters
I probably shouldn't say this but... the Israelis could learn something from the BATF...
115 posted on 04/16/2002 4:54:26 PM PDT by go star go
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To: history_matters
I would suggest the Disney ditty, "It's a Small World (After All)" launched at about 200 decibels. Over and over again.

Alas, I think that would violate the Geneva Convention.

--Boris

116 posted on 04/16/2002 4:54:50 PM PDT by boris
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To: history_matters
It is a mistake to paint them as Muslim terrorists when many of these people are Palestinian Christians. Bethlehem still has a very large Palestinian Christian population some of whom are in that Church including the Palestinian Franciscan monk Father Ibrahim.

There may be innocent civilians who are Christian in the church, but keep in mind that the people who are there shot their way in. They shot locks off of the doors. When the priests said this was a holy site and guns were not permitted, they pushed the priests aside and forced their way in. If they are not terrorists they have no reason to stay. Israel has offered to let everyone out. The only people who have anything to fear are those who have committed terrorist acts against Israel. All others will be free. Further, if there are Christians in the church who were not part of the terrorist group - what are they doing there? The church was closed at the time this group of armed men forced their way in.

117 posted on 04/16/2002 4:55:36 PM PDT by Tom Jefferson
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To: go star go
Well it would appear they are getting advice from Gen. "Waco" Downing.
118 posted on 04/16/2002 4:55:46 PM PDT by history_matters
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To: history_matters
The Franciscans and the Greek Orthodox have made it clear that if it had been Israelis rushiing into the Church for sanctuary from an overwhelming Palestinian army outside, they would have done the same and remained to protect the Church and given sanctuary to those who sought it.

Not even for a minute did I question the motives of the clergy inside. What I said was that the Palestinians play the Western sentiment as a fiddle. It is they, by their choice that purposefully stayed away from the portion controlled by the Vatican.

I will let you be the judge as to what constitutes the proper Christian response to the situation. It is my understanding, however, that at no time did the Church suggest too hide criminals from the law. What typically happens is that the running fugitive is given a sanctuary if he asks for it, and when the passions subside and there is no threat to the fugitive's life, the clergy would try to persuade him to surrender (to the law, of course, not to some gang). As for the law, Israelis have documents backing up the criminality of the fighters inside. In my view, they made a generous offer: to leave the country, or stand trial (note that we never give such an option to those who violate our laws).

The problem is, of course, that the clergy are not in a position to do anything: they are, in fact, hostages. I sympathize with them, and prey for their safety. With several machine guns next to them, they say they are giving sanctuary. You and I know that no one asked for it: the Palestinians took the Church by force. The clergy is deprived of freedom to speak.

You and I, however, are not deprived of the freedom to think. Why are you not appalled that the Palestinians stormed the Church? If you are in doubt, dig up the facts; you will find that there is nothing new about that. A few months ago (I can find a thread here on FR), they were actually shooting from the church on Manger Square. Were you appalled then? I was: although I am not a Christian, I can see a desecration of a shrine when I face it, no matter whose holy place it is. A couple of weeks ago, the Palestinians lynched an alleged collaborator --- in front of a church on the Manger Square. Were you applied then? I was and spoke up. In addition to desecration, that was a clear (to me) case of intimidation: chances are the poor victim was a Christian. You want more? Just check on the statistics telling you about the disappearance of the Christian population in Bethlehem.

You are welcome to continue to believe that Palestinians "asked" for sanctuary. Selective attention and selective retention is a popular decease in the Western world. It appears, however, that I, a Jew, am more insulted by the desecration of Christian sites than you are.

119 posted on 04/16/2002 4:57:26 PM PDT by TopQuark
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To: Tom Jefferson; Askel5
There were civilians cornered at the same time during the shoot out with the IDF and entered with the armed men to seek safety in their church. Fr. Peter Vasko, OFM of the Custody of the Holy Land has addressed this issue on EWTN. This link should give you the broadcast if you have RealPlayer.
120 posted on 04/16/2002 5:00:51 PM PDT by history_matters
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