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One more step down the slippery slope for UK
BBC Online ^ | 4/15/02 | Unkknown

Posted on 04/15/2002 12:37:40 PM PDT by scouse

Monday, 15 April, 2002, 19:08 GMT 20:08 UK

Woman dies after robbery

A 77-year-old woman who was badly beaten by a robber as he stole her fish supper has died.

A murder inquiry is under way after the attack on Marie Watson in Newcastle upon Tyne.

The pensioner suffered a broken right shoulder and extensive bruising to her face during the attack in the Heaton area.

Detective Superintendent Derek Storey, leading the murder investigation, said: "This was an appalling unprovoked attack upon an elderly defenceless woman."

Marie Watson died 11 days after the attack

Mrs Watson's family issued a statement through police saying: "Our mother's death was undignified and she has gone before her time.

"She was as much a friend as a mother to us and she will be sorely missed by us all."

Beth Gallagher, the woman's daughter, said her mother suffered great pain after the attack, which happened 11 days ago.

She said: "We don't want anyone else to go through the agony we have and just want the scum who did this to be caught.

"She was carrying her money in her pocket and all this person got was her new shopping bag and the fish she had just bought from a nearby fish and chip shop.

The remainder of article can be accessed at the address


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: banglist; chips; fish; pensioner
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To: Khepera
Yes removing Guns may have made her defenseless but I would recon that she would not have had one even if she could. Neither of my folks have or carry a gun even though they could if they wanted. I carry always but have never needed it.

Precisely. The thugs DO NOT KNOW WHO TO HIT IN MURRICA. Thusly, they are a little more respectful.

In England, however, the thugs know they may operate with impunity.

21 posted on 04/15/2002 2:16:52 PM PDT by Lazamataz
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To: Lazamataz
You got that right! I keep mine on my hip and low and behold everyone is so friendly.
22 posted on 04/15/2002 2:32:31 PM PDT by Khepera
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To: Jerrybob
Yes, didn't their passports used to say "British Subject" right on the cover? But now, I think they refer to themselves in the frenchy manner as "citizen." However those who vote for Tony call each other "comrade."
23 posted on 04/15/2002 2:42:30 PM PDT by Edmund Burke
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Comment #24 Removed by Moderator

Comment #25 Removed by Moderator

To: scouse
I remember about 25 years ago, Britain used to have about 20 murders a year for the entire country; whereas in the US, we had over 600 murders just in one town (Detroit). The breakdown of traditional family life and the lack of religious and moral training, which perhaps appeared first in the more libertine and heterogeneous United States, seems now to have led to anti-social behavior patterns througout Western society. Behavior previously associated with alientated segments of society (such as American negroes) has now spread throughout the entire society. Although the crime problem in Britain may be more prevalent among certain immigrant groups, I think it is also widespread in the lower class Anglo-Saxon majority as well.
26 posted on 04/15/2002 3:02:59 PM PDT by Edmund Burke
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To: coteblanche
You asked for it, you got it ... I'll do it.

I guess the best quote I can give you is this - "All that is necessary for evil to truimph is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke

'OUR SOCIETY has reached a pinnacle of self-expression and respect for individuality rare or unmatched in history. Our entire popular culture -- from fashion magazines to the cinema -- positively screams the matchless worth of the individual, and glories in eccentricity, nonconformity, independent judgment, and self-determination. This enthusiasm is reflected in the prevalent notion that helping someone entails increasing that person's "self-esteem"; that if a person properly values himself, he will naturally be a happy, productive, and, in some inexplicable fashion, responsible member of society.

And yet, while people are encouraged to revel in their individuality and incalculable self-worth, the media and the law enforcement establishment continually advise us that, when confronted with the threat of lethal violence, we should not resist, but simply give the attacker what he wants. If the crime under consideration is rape, there is some notable waffling on this point, and the discussion quickly moves to how the woman can change her behavior to minimize the risk of rape, and the various ridiculous, non-lethal weapons she may acceptably carry, such as whistles, keys, mace or, that weapon which really sends shivers down a rapist's spine, the portable cellular phone.

Now how can this be? How can a person who values himself so highly calmly accept the indignity of a criminal assault? How can one who believes that the essence of his dignity lies in his self-determination passively accept the forcible deprivation of that self-determination? How can he, quietly, with great dignity and poise, simply hand over the goods?

The assumption, of course, is that there is no inconsistency. The advice not to resist a criminal assault and simply hand over the goods is founded on the notion that one's life is of incalculable value, and that no amount of property is worth it. Put aside, for a moment, the outrageousness of the suggestion that a criminal who proffers lethal violence should be treated as if he has instituted a new social contract: "I will not hurt or kill you if you give me what I want." For years, feminists have labored to educate people that rape is not about sex, but about domination, degradation, and control. Evidently, someone needs to inform the law enforcement establishment and the media that kidnapping, robbery, carjacking, and assault are not about property.

Crime is not only a complete disavowal of the social contract, but also a commandeering of the victim's person and liberty. If the individual's dignity lies in the fact that he is a moral agent engaging in actions of his own will, in free exchange with others, then crime always violates the victim's dignity. It is, in fact, an act of enslavement. Your wallet, your purse, or your car may not be worth your life, but your dignity is; and if it is not worth fighting for, it can hardly be said to exist.

The Gift of Life

Although difficult for modern man to fathom, it was once widely believed that life was a gift from God, that to not defend that life when offered violence was to hold God's gift in contempt, to be a coward and to breach one's duty to one's community. A sermon given in Philadelphia in 1747 unequivocally equated the failure to defend oneself with suicide:

He that suffers his life to be taken from him by one that hath no authority for that purpose, when he might preserve it by defense, incurs the Guilt of self murder since God hath enjoined him to seek the continuance of his life, and Nature itself teaches every creature to defend itself.

"Cowardice" and "self-respect" have largely disappeared from public discourse. In their place we are offered "self-esteem" as the bellwether of success and a proxy for dignity. "Self-respect" implies that one recognizes standards, and judges oneself worthy by the degree to which one lives up to them. "Self-esteem" simply means that one feels good about oneself. "Dignity" used to refer to the self-mastery and fortitude with which a person conducted himself in the face of life's vicissitudes and the boorish behavior of others. Now, judging by campus speech codes, dignity requires that we never encounter a discouraging word and that others be coerced into acting respectfully, evidently on the assumption that we are powerless to prevent our degradation if exposed to the demeaning behavior of others. These are signposts proclaiming the insubstantiality of our character, the hollowness of our souls.

It is impossible to address the problem of rampant crime without talking about the moral responsibility of the intended victim. Crime is rampant because the law-abiding, each of us, condone it, excuse it, permit it, submit to it. We permit and encourage it because we do not fight back, immediately, then and there, where it happens. Crime is not rampant because we do not have enough prisons, because judges and prosecutors are too soft, because the police are hamstrung with absurd technicalities. The defect is there, in our character. We are a nation of cowards and shirkers.

Do You Feel Lucky?

In 1991, when then-Attorney General Richard Thornburgh released the FBI's annual crime statistics, he noted that it is now more likely that a person will be the victim of a violent crime than that he will be in an auto accident. Despite this, most people readily believe that the existence of the police relieves them of the responsibility to take full measures to protect themselves. The police, however, are not personal bodyguards. Rather, they act as a general deterrent to crime, both by their presence and by apprehending criminals after the fact. As numerous courts have held, they have no legal obligation to protect anyone in particular. You cannot sue them for failing to prevent you from being the victim of a crime.

Insofar as the police deter by their presence, they are very, very good. Criminals take great pains not to commit a crime in front of them. Unfortunately, the corollary is that you can pretty much bet your life (and you are) that they won't be there at the moment you actually need them.

Should you ever be the victim of an assault, a robbery, or a rape, you will find it very difficult to call the police while the act is in progress, even if you are carrying a portable cellular phone. Nevertheless, you might be interested to know how long it takes them to show up. Department of Justice statistics for 1991 show that, for all crimes of violence, only 28 percent of calls are responded to within five minutes. The idea that protection is a service people can call to have delivered and expect to receive in a timely fashion is often mocked by gun owners, who love to recite the challenge, "Call for a cop, call for an ambulance, and call for a pizza. See who shows up first."

Many people deal with the problem of crime by convincing themselves that they live, work, and travel only in special "crime-free" zones. Invariably, they react with shock and hurt surprise when they discover that criminals do not play by the rules and do not respect these imaginary boundaries. If, however, you understand that crime can occur anywhere at anytime, and if you understand that you can be maimed or mortally wounded in mere seconds, you may wish to consider whether you are willing to place the responsibility for safeguarding your life in the hands of others.

Power And Responsibility

Is your life worth protecting? If so, whose responsibility is it to protect it? If you believe that it is the police's, not only are you wrong -- since the courts universally rule that they have no legal obligation to do so -- but you face some difficult moral quandaries. How can you rightfully ask another human being to risk his life to protect yours, when you will assume no responsibility yourself? Because that is his job and we pay him to do it? Because your life is of incalculable value, but his is only worth the $30,000 salary we pay him? If you believe it reprehensible to possess the means and will to use lethal force to repel a criminal assault, how can you call upon another to do so for you?

Do you believe that you are forbidden to protect yourself because the police are better qualified to protect you, because they know what they are doing but you're a rank amateur? Put aside that this is equivalent to believing that only concert pianists may play the piano and only professional athletes may play sports. What exactly are these special qualities possessed only by the police and beyond the rest of us mere mortals?

One who values his life and takes seriously his responsibilities to his family and community will possess and cultivate the means of fighting back, and will retaliate when threatened with death or grievous injury to himself or a loved one. He will never be content to rely solely on others for his safety, or to think he has done all that is possible by being aware of his surroundings and taking measures of avoidance. Let's not mince words: He will be armed, will be trained in the use of his weapon, and will defend himself when faced with lethal violence.

Fortunately, there is a weapon for preserving life and liberty that can be wielded effectively by almost anyone -- the handgun. Small and light enough to be carried habitually, lethal, but unlike the knife or sword, not demanding great skill or strength, it truly is the "great equalizer." Requiring only hand-eye coordination and a modicum of ability to remain cool under pressure, it can be used effectively by the old and the weak against the young and the strong, by the one against the many.

The handgun is the only weapon that would give a lone female jogger a chance of prevailing against a gang of thugs intent on rape, a teacher a chance of protecting children at recess from a madman intent on massacring them, a family of tourists waiting at a mid-town subway station the means to protect themselves from a gang of teens armed with razors and knives.' - From A Nation of Cowards- Jeff Snyder

Now ... where do you stand?

27 posted on 04/15/2002 3:08:22 PM PDT by Colt .45
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To: Colt .45
Good article.
29 posted on 04/15/2002 5:18:57 PM PDT by Gritty
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To: camle
...made her defenseless, by taking away her right to defend herself

Somehow, I can't imagine myself in my golden years cuddling my gun as I protect my fish supper. I don't believe this sort of incident is the norm in the UK any more than your reaction is typical of all Americans.

30 posted on 04/15/2002 5:29:54 PM PDT by shaggy eel
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To: onedoug
Where does the slope get slippery?

As far as England is concerned, I think they're way beyond the slippery slope. It's more like freefall.

I find it incredible that people in leadership positions completely lose the capacity for rational thought. England bans guns, crime skyrockets. Australia bans guns, crime skyrockets. Canada wants to ban guns. Any guesses as to what will happen? Surely if this is tried enough, it MUST eventually work!

This makes me think of a monkey hooked up to electrodes who repeatedly presses a button, only to recieve a severe electric shock each time it presses the button. How many times must entire contries recieve electric shocks before people realize that perhaps pressing the button of gun bans isn't all that great of an idea? If we didn't learn it by now, we'll never learn it.

I have the ultimate solution to gun crimes. I know exactly how we can stop all gun violence. Press the big red button marked "NUKE". Only after the human race has been wiped out of existence by nuclear war can we be truly free from gun violence.
31 posted on 04/16/2002 1:02:43 AM PDT by VRWC_Member428
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To: in_troth
While there is no guarantee, she'd still have had a chance to defend herself. My nana succumbed to lymphoma at the age of 88. She was still fiesty as all hell up until the last few weeks. I have no doubt she could have fired a weapon had she needed too. Being 77 does not necessarily mean too frail.
32 posted on 04/16/2002 1:08:29 AM PDT by Bella_Bru
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To: VRWC_Member428
I find it incredible that people in leadership positions completely lose the capacity for rational thought. England bans guns, crime skyrockets. Australia bans guns, crime skyrockets. Canada wants to ban guns. Any guesses as to what will happen? Surely if this is tried enough, it MUST eventually work!

This makes me think of a monkey hooked up to electrodes who repeatedly presses a button, only to recieve a severe electric shock each time it presses the button. How many times must entire contries recieve electric shocks before people realize that perhaps pressing the button of gun bans isn't all that great of an idea? If we didn't learn it by now, we'll never learn it.

Let's assume that those in power are really not as stupid as you say they are. - Maybe the point is get the laws passed to ban the guns so the people can't revolt.

The people in power have the police and their bodyguards to protect them. They live in very nice areas of town and travel to and from nice secure areas. Others do their shopping for them. They don't run the risks of random crime that the ordinary people do.

It's just a shame that most of the people don't see it though...

33 posted on 04/16/2002 1:24:12 AM PDT by Screaming_Gerbil
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To: coteblanche
Cote ... here's one for ya!

91-year-old says he had to shoot man who dragged neighbor

04/06/02
Associated Press - Columbus

- A 91-year-old man said he had no choice but to shoot a man who he said dragged his neighbor through the house by her hair.

"She would be dead," Shirley Becraft said of his neighbor, Virginia Devoe. "I guarantee you." Becraft spoke on Thursday for the first time about killing Devoe's ex-boyfriend, James Ryan McVay, 28, two days earlier. Becraft hasn't been charged, police spokeswoman Sherry Mercurio said yesterday.

Becraft said he went to Devoe's house Tuesday night with a gun because he was concerned about her safety. He said Devoe, 54, came to his house crying earlier that day, saying McVay had called her and said he was coming to kill her. Becraft said he told Devoe to stay at his house, but she was concerned McVay would burn her house.

---------------------------------------

Now what's all this about age being a factor of not defending one's self or others?

34 posted on 04/17/2002 12:09:26 PM PDT by Colt .45
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