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The Atlantic ^ | 4-2-2002 | Charles C. Mann

[ASA Vet]

Who? Me? ;>)

[blam]

"link to thread about the underwater City off Cuba"

Thanks for the link. There is a more recent (nothing new really) update posted here about a week ago. I worry that this is being over hyped and will turn out to be a 'natural' formation. (I sure hope not though!) My theory about the Gulf Of Mexico partially drying up (like the Black Sea) during the Ice Age is dependent on this being a human site.

[RightWhale]

that city that was just found submerged off the coast of Cuba

Is it confirmed, or is it still a "possible?" I also want to use my new word, now. While there may be evidence of saganistic consilience in these observations of localized prehistoric habitation, and we realize there was irrigated agriculture over large areas of South America in those times, still the population of 100 million or so that they hypothesize is not large compared with the present population. It would have been an easier time, not much road rage, not many boom boxes.

[ASA Vet]

That "newest" article is posted on the 2nd thread at about #150.

[lentulusgracchus]

For a discussion of pre-Columbian population levels and the epidemiological effects of the Columbian Exchange, see Secret Judgements of God, I don't have the author. Not a long read, but a pretty thorough documentation of the effects of European and African diseases on the New World populations.

The title refers to what one Spanish imperial writer thought about the great reduction in New World population, and his attempt to account for them. De Soto found the Indian villages of Florida already decimated by disease; the epidemics had struck a generation before his arrival; and New Englanders frequently found abandoned Indian villages, too.

[blam]

Probe Into Cuba's Possible 'Sunken City' Advances Dated: 3-29-2002.

[mamelukesabre]

Absolute trash. For the most part, the new world was populated by savage cannibals that were lucky to live 30 years before succumbing to the elements, or to their enemies. Here is a perfect example of how backward they were: They entire new world was totally ignorant of the invention of the *wheel* before europeans arrived. Except for the turkey, there were absolutely ZERO DOMESTICATED ANIMALS. And the turkey wasn't really domesticated in the sense that we would think. They were semi-domesticated. They had NO knowledge of metal. They had no written language. They had no domesticated grains, except for maize.

Try to immagine what kind of society is possible without metal, the wheel, or domesticated animals. There isn't much there to work with.

[RightWhale]

llama, potato, pepper, gold

[mamelukesabre]

Make that north america. I should admit that I know almost nothing of south america.

[Carry_Okie]

That's you? You wrote that book?

Yup. It's me. Why? Did you read it? If not... :-)

I'm complimented to be in such company.

Thank you kindly.

I'm one of the original Silicon Valley boys.

LOL! A Fairchildren?! Anybody I know?

[mamelukesabre]

See my previous post for my clarification.

"potato and pepper" are not grains.

[blam]

...and New Englanders frequently found abandoned Indian villages, too."

I've read numerous stories/articles about this. When the Europeans moved west and asked the Indians who built the things they encountered, the Indians did not know either. One theory has it that the youngest and the oldest were affected the most by the diseases and the 'elders', being 'the keepers of the knowledge' died and a generational gap developed where all accumulated (previous) knowledge was lost forever.

[blam]

"LOL! A Fairchildren?! Anybody I know?"

Probably not, I was a small fry. (Engineering Technician, badge #57 at National Semiconductor)

[FourtySeven]

mark for later

[spqrzilla9]

I have no doubt that disease reduced the population of the americas, just as it reduced that of Europe at times. However, the article exaggerates IMO. Note that the article attempts in places to compare the relative discoveries of population by subsequent explorers who don't actually cover the same areas.

Seems dishonest.

[Freetus]

Part of the reason these things as you say are true is because there were no suitable animals to domesticate. What were they going to have, pack chickens? They did have the wheel, but their terrain was too rough for roads, not to mention, why would you need a wheel if you have no suitable pack animals to be pulling the cart?

Europe had wild grains that were just begging for domestication. Europe had wildebeast and horses just begging for that slight genetic tweak into domestication.

The South Americans were simply the victims of bad geographical fortune, not cultural inferiority. When Cortez arived at Teotihuacan, he walked into a city more technologically advanced than any in Europe. The Spaniards were the backward barbarians. They "beat" the native cultures only because they were riddled with infectious diseases and were better liars.

[mamelukesabre]

How can you really beleive that? You really beleive professional soldiers with steel swords, gun powder, steel body armor, war horses, guard dogs, grandiose sailing ships, and a religious fervor went into central america and met a technologically superior culture and conquered it merely by astounding luck???????????? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!!


I think you need to dust off the ole common sense and start using it.


They say lying and humor are the most accurate measures of intelligence that exist. Were the native peoples humorless as well?

[RightWhale]

"potato and pepper" are not grains

Oh, beautiful, for spacious skies, for amber waves of food starch.

[mamelukesabre]

LOL!

Ok, you got "potato" covered.....now how are you going to work over the definition of "grain" to include "pepper"?

[Freetus]

Guns, Germs, and Steel by Pulitzer prize winning Jared Diamond.

You should read that b4 you start yelling at me. Teotihuacan was a city of 100,000 people or more. The largest city in Europe at the time was about 30,000. Teotihuacan had running water and a very specialized society. Spain at the time was a virtual backwater. The Spainards had never seen anything like what they walked into. How they got the upper hand is one of the most amazing stories of luck and deceit in human history. Cortez was able to exploit the tribes against each other through his clever manipulation. He was outnumbered. Their "guns" were extremely primitive and no match for the aztec warriors. At any point they all could have been killed, but yes, Cortez was lucky and wickidly clever. That's the story. Read about it - It's truly amazing.