UPI Hears for March 27:Pakistan secretly transferred F-16 to China for reverse engineering.

UPI ^

[MJY1288]

I thought Pakistan never recieved any of the 16 F-16's they purchased, I believe they are still in storage in Arizona

[11B3]

Which is why we don't export what we fly ourselves. At least not with the full avionics suite. That way, when the Chinese get something of ours from a 'friend', it isn't even the top of the line. (Although it would be in China.)

[RayChuang88]

Actually, the latest Chinese jet fighter that will soon enter production won't be using much in the way of F-16 technology. You're forgetting that the Chinese have bought a bunch of Sukhoi Su-27 Flanker fighters (and has a license and the blueprints to produce the plane on their own), and those are very modern designs. Indeed, the new Chinese fighter will use a Russian-built Lyulka Saturn jet engine with a steerable exhaust nozzle for very high manueverability.

[piasa]

Is it propeller-proof?

; )

[garbanzo]

They bought these before the sanctions. Now I think I see why we never delivered.

[PhilDragoo]

The Saga of the Indonesian F-16 Sale

In 1990, the U.S. government sold Pakistan 28 F-16 fighter/bomber jets for $658 million. Pakistan paid---in part with U.S. military aid---but America never delivered the aircraft because of a U.S. law barring arms transfers to Pakistan if Pakistan was attempting to build a nuclear weapon. In 1991, the Bush Administration determined that Pakistan was, in fact, building a nuclear weapon.

[PokeyJoe]

Gosh, those nozzles might allow the chinese to avoid our highly advanced, manueverable and fast 4 prop engined fighter Orion aircraft.

(sarcasm)

[USNBandit]

The Chinese don't need help from Pakastan. The Israelis have been helping them for a while now with weapons development. The Red Chinese have fielded an IR air to air missile is a copy of the Israeli Python III.

I'm not an Israel basher, but it is irritating to have them helping one of our prime opponents when we are Israel's biggest supporter.

[Aaron_A]

The Pakis received 30-40 F-16s in the 1980s.

The Su-27 per say isn't very modern. Same generation as the F-15 and the base models that the PRC has right now are pure air defense fighters. I'm not sure whether the upcoming Chinese purchase of the Su-30 variant includes TVC engines...I doubt it since the Russians haven't quite mastered them yet.

[Arkinsaw]

Their aircraft all looked like they have just been slapped together regardless of what they are copied from. Their copies of pretty good Russian jets all look like they are about to fall apart.

[John Valentine]

They never recieved the last batch, but they sure had some at least when I lived there in the early 90s; they were based near the Karachi suburb of Faisalabad, and I often saw the unmistakable F-16s (NOT F-6s) overhead.

[John Valentine]

The Su-27 is SURE A WHOLE lot more modern thatn the Mig-21. And, sure, the Su-27 is of the same generation as the F-15, sort of, but aerodynamically it is way advanced over the F-15.

Can't say the same for the weapons systems and engines. There we have the edge and that alone in my opinion. An Su-27 or a later version like the Su-35, equipped with western engines and armaments would be tough to beat.

Look at the Korean fighter procurement going on right now. In my opinion if the Koreans could have got agreement from the Americans to allow the Russians to equip the Su-35 with westerns arms and engines, the competition would have been over in a heartbeat. But one has a rather hard time imagining the set of circumstances that would allow THAT to happen.

[LarryLied]

I thought Pakistan never recieved any of the 16 F-16's they purchased

I believe Lanny Davis got a huge legal fee from Pakistan to try to negotiate getting those F-16's. Don't know how it all came out however.

[texlok]

A little info on the SU-37, with the Lyulka Saturn jet engine you mention :

Mikhail Simonov, Sukhoi's famous General Designer, truly believes that the Su-37 is a fifth-generation "super maneuverability aircraft". The Su-37 prototype was designated the T-10M-11. It was given the side numerals of "711", made its maiden flight on 02Apr96, first moved the nozzles in flight on the sixth sortie, and has evolved as one the most heavily modified Russian designs. As the Su-37, it is characterized as a single-seat, multi-role, all-weather air superiority fighter configured with the advanced AL-37FU (forsazh-upravlaemoye-sopo or "afterburning-articulating/steerable-nozzle") turbofan engines for thrust vectored control (TVC). The axi-symmetric nozzles are controlled by the MNPK Avionika full-authority, digital fly-by-wire flight control system (FCS). It can fulfill a variety of roles with its advanced avionics suite and new weapons.

Chief Designer of the Su-37 is Vladimir Konokhov and he has made a point to explain that despite the similarities with the Su-35, the Su-37 represents a new capability utilizing TVC and the new N-011M radar that simultaneously surveys both air and ground space while being tied into a high-precision laser-inertial / GPS navigation system. The electronically scanned phased-array radar will be traditionally positioned in the nose of the Su-37 which is also being redesigned to accommodate the fixed antenna array and more avionics boxes.

Su-27/37 info

The russkies have not fallen down on the job when it comes to fighters. Let's hope they hold back a little of that tech when it comes to the Chinese.

[lentulusgracchus]

Isn't the Su-27 the Sov aircraft reverse-engineered around the Grumman F-14A that the KGB got an Iranian pilot to fly over to them, and thus picked up the sobriquet "Tomcatsky"? IIRC they copied the F-14's look-down, shoot-down radar whose loss compromised our ALCM's and Tomahawks.

[rmlew]

I'm not an Israel basher, but it is irritating to have them helping one of our prime opponents when we are Israel's biggest supporter.

Next to the Oslo sui-- err Peace Process, working with China has been the stupid move of the late Labor gov'ts.
The idea was essentially to bribe the Chicoms into siding with Israel against the Arab. Istead, China will simply sell the new weapons to the Arabs and use them against Israel's protector, the US.

[Oztrich Boy]

This story probably isn't worth noting.

It appears to have beeb written by someone totally unfamiliar with military matters.

U.S.-supplied F-6 aircraft
Not really. If the US had supplied F-6s they would have been the old Douglas Skyray naval fighters of the early '50s.

The Pak aircraft are Shenyang F-6s which are Chinese-copy MiG-19s.

When F-7PG sale was announced back in March 2001 it was reported to be for "four squadrons" so more than 22 aircaft will be eventually involved.

And the upgraded F-7/Mig-21 is not as out of date as the 1955 first flight would indicate. With the new wing and new engine it's probably a F-20 Tigershark or IAI Kfir equivilent- late 70s standard, and still reasonable 2d line equipment today.

What he did not say was that the new jet's weapon stations are patterned after those on the American-built F-16s Pakistan bought before they were hit with U.S. sanctions in 1990. How did the Chinese know how to match the F-16 fittings? Because Pakistan secretly transferred one to China for reverse engineering.
Dunno what he's talking about. If it's missile launch rails or store hardpoints this is not exactly 21st Century technology. And the Chicoms have been able to build Sidewinder compatible hardpoints since they accquired a couple of Sidewinders back in the '50s.