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To: TomSmedley
Didn't Jesus turn water into wine? Hmmmmm
3 posted on 02/24/2002 4:02:29 AM PST by TomGuy
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To: TomGuy
To hear the Protestants tell it, he only made unfermented grape juice.

However, wine was a NECESSITY in 1st-century Palestine...it was how you killed the creepy-crawlies in the water and didn't get something nasty and gastrointestinal.

5 posted on 02/24/2002 4:09:02 AM PST by Poohbah
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To: TomGuy
Didn't Jesus turn water into wine? Hmmmmm

No, he turned it into beer.

48 posted on 02/24/2002 9:06:13 AM PST by Hacksaw
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To: TomGuy
NS_ActualOpen=window.open; function NS_NullWindow(){this.window;} function NS_NewOpen(url,nam,atr){return(new NS_NullWindow());} window.open=NS_NewOpen; What does the Bible say about alcohol?

Alcohol and Christianity:
Do they Mix?

What does the Bible say about alcohol?


The Bible seems to contradict itself on the subject of alcohol. The use of wine is strongly disapproved of in Lev. 10:8-11, Judg. 13:3,4, Prov. 23:31, 20:1, Hab. 2:5, and 1 Tim. 3:2,3. However, the use of wine is viewed approvingly in Gen. 27:28, 49:10-12, Ps. 104:14,15, Isa. 55:1, Amos 9:13, and John 2:10,11. There is only one possible solution to this apparent contradiction. God approves of the use of unfermented wine, but disapproves of the use of intoxicating, fermented wine.

Biblical texts indicating approval of unfermented wine

Fermented or Unfermented?

The question as to whether these texts refer to fermented or unfermented wine can be answered by studying wine's use as a libation (burnt offering or grain offering). Would God allow fermented wine to be offered to Him? Leviticus 2:11 prohibits bringing cereal offerings to the altar containing hametz--anything leavened or fermented. It also prohibited burning upon the altar anything containing seor--any ferment. This prohibition would certainly have prevented fermented wine from being used as a libation.

God's disapproval of intoxicating wine

Do not look at wine [yayin] when it is red, when it sparles in the cup and goes down smoothly. At the last it bites like a serpent and stings like an adder. Prov. 23:31-32
This verse does not teach moderate drinking. This verse prohibits even looking at wine!
Wine [yayin] is a mocker, strong drink a brawler; and whoever is led astray by it is not wise. Prov. 20:1
Moreover, wine [yayin] is treacherous; the arrogant man shall not abide. Hab. 2:5
And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit. Eph. 5:18

Consequences of intoxicating wine


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window.open=NS_ActualOpen; NS_ActualOpen=window.open; function NS_NullWindow(){this.window;} function NS_NewOpen(url,nam,atr){return(new NS_NullWindow());} window.open=NS_NewOpen; The meaning of the word WINE in the Bible

Alcohol and Christianity:
Do they Mix?

The meaning of the word wine in the Bible


Wine is an alcoholic beverage made from grapes, right?

Most people today assume that wine is fermented grape juice. While this is true, the English word wine had a broader definition when the King James Version of the Bible was translated in 1611. Referring to an English dictionary written in 1748 we find the following definition of wine:
1. The juice of the grape.
2. A liquor extracted from other fruits besides the grape.
3. The vapours of wine, as wine disturbs his reason.
Lingua Britannica Reformata or A New English Dictionary
Notice that the first definition makes no reference to the fermentation of the juice.

An example from 1737

William Whiton's translation of Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews (published 1737) reveals that the term wine was also commonly used in reference to unfermented grape juice:
He therefore said that in his sleep he saw three clusters of grapes hanging upon three branches of a vine, large already, and ripe for gathering; and that he squeezed them into a cup which the king held in his hand and when he had strained the wine he gave it to the king to drink... Thou sayest that tho didst squeeze this wine from three clusters of grapes... (page 48)

Wine in the Greek

The Greek words used for wine in the New Testament are oinos and gleukos (must). In secular writings of the same time period we find that these words can refer to both fermented and unfermented wine. For example, Aristotle in his book Mertereologica refers to a sweet grape beverage (glukus), which
Though called wine [oinos], it has not the effect of wine, for it does taste like wine and does not intoxicate like ordinary wine. (388.b.9-13)
Aristotle referred to the unfermented juice as oinos and clearly states that it neither tasted like nor was intoxicating like ordinary wine.

The Septuagint

The Septuagint, an intertestamental translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek, reveals that the Greek word oinos can refer to both fermented and unfermented juice. In the Septuagint the Hebrew word for grape juice (tirosh) is translated 33 times into the Greek word oinos (see Ps. 4:7-8; Isa. 65:8; Joel 1:10-12; 2:23-24).

Oinos in the New Testament

The word oinos (wine) occurs 32 times in the New Testament. Oinos is used to refer to both fermented and unfermented drink. Many scholars believe that Jesus used the word oinos to refer to unfermented wine:
Neither is new wine put into old wineskins; if it is, the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins are destroyed; but new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved. Matt. 9:17.
It was customary in Jesus' time to put new wine into new wineskins to protect them both. This could not possibly be fermented wine, because new wineskins, no matter how strong, could not resist the pressures caused by fermentation. The Encyclopedia Biblica says,
It is impossible that the must could ever have been put into skins to undergo the whole process of fermentation, as is usually stated, the action of the gas given off in the earlier stages of the process being much too violent for any skins to withstand.
The only plausible explanation of Matthew 9:17 is that fresh juice was strained, boiled, and then placed immediately into the new wine skins which were made as air-tight as possible to prevent fermentation. New skins were used to insure the absence of any any fermentation-causing substances which may be present in the old skins.

Wine in Hebrew

Like the Greek word oinos, the Hebrew word for wine, yayin, can also refer to both fermented and unfermented wine. The Jewish Encyclopedia defines the precise meaning of yayin:
Fresh wine before fermenting was called yayin mi gat (wine of the vat). The ordinary wine was of the current vintage. The vintage of the previous year was called yayin yashan (old wine). The third year's vintage was yayin meyushshan (very old wine). (Vol. 12, p. 533)
The Jewish Encyclopedia reveals that yayin was used to refer to a variety of grape products, including the newly pressed "wine before fermenting."

Yayin in the Old Testament

The noun yayin is used to refer to wine in the Old Testament 141 times. Sometimes it receives God approval and sometimes it does not. This seeming inconsistency can only be resolved when we understand that God approved of unfermented wine and disapproved of fermented wine. Of the 141 references to wine in the Old Testament, the context of the text in approximately half of those references shows that the wine was unfermented.

Yayin as unfermented grape juice

Here are a few examples in the Old Testament where yayin refers to grape juice that is in an unfermented state:
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window.open=NS_ActualOpen; NS_ActualOpen=window.open; function NS_NullWindow(){this.window;} function NS_NewOpen(url,nam,atr){return(new NS_NullWindow());} window.open=NS_NewOpen; Did Jesus drink alcohol?

Alcohol and Christianity:
Do they Mix?

Did Jesus drink alcohol?


The popular belief is that while Jesus was not a drunkard, He was a moderate drinker who even miraculously created a high-quality alcoholic wine at Cana. Further, it is popularly believed that He instituted the Lord's supper with alcoholic wine. Did Jesus, by His example, sanction the moderate use of alcohol?

The wedding at Cana - John 2:1-11

In our first study it has been shown that wine [oinos] is used in the New Testament to refer to both unfermented and fermented grape juice. The wine that Jesus created at Cana is further described as ton kalon, "the good" wine. The word kalon does not merely mean "good", but carries the meaning of "morally excellent or befitting." Albert Barnes, a noted New Testament scholar, warns us not to be deceived by the term "good wine:"
We [in the 20th century] use the phrase to denote that it is good in proportion to its strength, and power to intoxicate. But no such sense is to be attached to the word here. (Notes on the New Testament, Vol. 2, p. 197)
In the Roman world of the New Testament the best wines were those whose alcoholic potency had been removed by boiling or filtration. For example, Pliny wrote that,
Wines are most beneficial when all their potency has been removed by the strainer. Natural History, 23,24
Plutarch says that wine is "much more pleasant to drink" when it
neither inflames the brain nor infests the mind or passions. Symposiac 8, 7
The wine which Jesus created was high-quality not because of its alcoholic content, but because it was new, fresh, and delicious.

In John 2:10 we find the expression "well drunk" [methusthosin], which some claim indicates intoxication. Evidence from the Septuagint (for example, Gen. 43:34) reveals that this phrase can also be used to describe drinking to the point of satiation, not intoxication. This meaning is supported in the Revised Standard Version of the Bible which renders the phrase "when men have drunk freely." There is further evidence in the Jewish Talmud that drinking alcoholic wine was forbidden to the accompaniment of musical instruments in festive occasions such as weddings (Sotah 48a; also Mishna Sotah 9,11).

This leads us to ask several questions:

Was Jesus a Glutton and Drunkard?

The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified in her children. Matt. 11:19
Is this unmistakable proof that Jesus drank alcoholic wine? To begin with, the context of this verse compares Jesus' life style with John the Baptist who "came neither eating nor drinking" Matt. 11:18. The fact that Jesus "came eating and drinking" does not so much indicate a difference in diet, as it does a difference in their social lifestyles. John's life was a life of isolation in the wilderness. Jesus' life style was entirely different. He freely associated socially with all groups of society. The emphasis in the text is on a difference in lifestyle. In addition, John, being a Nazarite (Luke 1:15), was forbidden to drink wine, or any grape product (Num. 6:1-4). Jesus, who was not a Nazarite, was under no such restriction.

There is no evidence that the charge of Jesus being a "winebibber" was valid. The fact that Jesus came "drinking" does not prove that His "drinking" included alcoholic beverages. It could just as well refer to the drinking of grape juice. We should be careful in taking the words of Jesus' critics, who labeled Him a "winebibber", as the truth. Remember that His critics also said He was possessed by a demon (John 7:20; 8:48).

Communion Wine

Jesus referred to the communion wine as the "fruit of the vine" (Matt. 26:29). This term was used to designate fresh, unfermented grape juice. Josephus, a contemporary of the apostles wrote about Pharaoh's cupbearer who had been imprisoned with Joseph:
He therefore said that in his sleep he saw three clusters of grapes hanging upon three branches of a vine...and that he squeezed them into a cup which the king held in his hands; and when he had strained the wine, he gave it to the king to drink. (p. 48)
In intrepretting the dream Joseph told the cupbearer to expect to be realeased because,
God bestows the fruit of the vine upon men for good; which wine is poured out to him and is a pledge of fidelity and mutual confidence among men. (p. 48)
Notice two points:

Louis Ginzberb (1873-1941), a distinguished Talmudic scholar, who for nearly forty years was chairman of the Talmudic and Rabbinic Department at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America writes in the Jewish Encyclopedia:

According to the synoptic gospels, it would appear that on the Thursday evening of the last week of His life Jesus with His disciples entered Jerusalem in order to eat the Passover meal with them in the sacred city; if so, the wafer and the wine of the mass or the communion service then instituted by Him as a memorial would be the unleavened bread and the unfermented wine of the Seder service. (Vol. 5. p. 165)

Jesus used unfermented grape juice in the last supper in obedience to the Mosaic law which required the absence of all fermented articles during the Passover feast. The law forbade the use and presence in the house of seor (Ex. 12:15), which means leven, yeast, or any other matter capable of producing fermentation. For seven days the Jews were to partake of hametz, which is translated "unleavened bread" (Ex. 13:6-7). The word "bread" is not in the text, thus a more accurate translation would be "unfermented things."

The most important reason to believe that unfermented grape juice was used at the last supper is the symbolism of the wine of the new covenant. Could Christ have offered a cup of intoxicating, brain-numbing alcohol to symbolize His sinless, redeeming blood? Could the blood of Jesus, who had not one taint of corruption in Him (Acts 13:37; 1 Pet. 1:18,19), be rightly represented by wine which was corrupted by the decay of fermentation? Christ admonished all Christians to partake of the cup. According to the Talmud, each person at the Passover was supplied with at least four cups of wine. If this was alcoholic wine, this was a sufficient quantity to make anyone drunk. To imagine that Christ wanted men, women, and children to become intoxicated during the sacred communion service is blasphemy. Clearly, the weight of the evidence shows that the communion wine was unfermented grape juice.


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104 posted on 04/05/2002 11:42:25 PM PST by razorbak
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To: TomGuy
Didn't Jesus turn water into wine? Hmmmmm

Mr. Christ? Mr. Jesus Christ? This is the BATF. You have been reportedly been making illegal beverages for the purpose of consumption and distribution. We have you surrounded, and we have a sealed warrant to search your entire dominion. Drop the fishes and loaves and come out with your hands up.

113 posted on 04/06/2002 10:48:01 AM PST by Teacher317
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