Focus on the Family Liquor Cabinet

Razormouth: cutting-edge Christianity ^ | Friday, February 22, 2002 | Jamey Bennett

[HiTech RedNeck]

Perhaps YOU would like to include an example or two with your laudations. Of how Dobson makes the gospel anything but a small secondary affair at best.

[HiTech RedNeck]

You know very well what I am talking about.

I am saying that more drinking doesn't need to mean more drunks or more alcoholics. That is as obvious as the light of day. You are evading and arguing on (at best) unproven premises.

Would YOU not agree that virtually all "problem drinkers" are already drinking? They need no ads to move them to the bar or to the bottle. It's the discretionary drinkers who are most influenced by advertising.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Oh, and you are strangely silent about this factor in advertising: brand competition. A liquor producer has no particular interest in selling people on the idea that their competitor's brand will do as well as their own. Busch beer has no interest in selling viewers of its ads on the idea of having Michelob weekends. Absolut Vodka would hardly want to send people to the liquor store to buy Seagram's. Any more than Ford would want to sell a Chevrolet to a new car buyer.

[razorbak]

NS_ActualOpen=window.open; function NS_NullWindow(){this.window;} function NS_NewOpen(url,nam,atr){return(new NS_NullWindow());} window.open=NS_NewOpen; What does the Bible say about alcohol?

Alcohol and Christianity:
Do they Mix?

What does the Bible say about alcohol?

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The Bible seems to contradict itself on the subject of alcohol. The use of wine is strongly disapproved of in Lev. 10:8-11, Judg. 13:3,4, Prov. 23:31, 20:1, Hab. 2:5, and 1 Tim. 3:2,3. However, the use of wine is viewed approvingly in Gen. 27:28, 49:10-12, Ps. 104:14,15, Isa. 55:1, Amos 9:13, and John 2:10,11. There is only one possible solution to this apparent contradiction. God approves of the use of unfermented wine, but disapproves of the use of intoxicating, fermented wine.

Biblical texts indicating approval of unfermented wine

• A divine blessing - Gen. 27:28; 49:10,11; Deut. 33:38
• A symbol of Messianic blessings - Joel 2:18,19; Jer. 31:10-12; Amos 9:13,14
• A wholesome beverage - Ps. 104:14,15
• A tithe or offering - Num. 18:12; Deut. 14:23
• A libation - Ex. 29:40; Lev. 23:13; Num. 15:5,7; 28:14; 1 Chron. 9:29; Hos. 9:4; 14:7; Deut. 32:28

Fermented or Unfermented?

The question as to whether these texts refer to fermented or unfermented wine can be answered by studying wine's use as a libation (burnt offering or grain offering). Would God allow fermented wine to be offered to Him? Leviticus 2:11 prohibits bringing cereal offerings to the altar containing hametz--anything leavened or fermented. It also prohibited burning upon the altar anything containing seor--any ferment. This prohibition would certainly have prevented fermented wine from being used as a libation.

God's disapproval of intoxicating wine

Do not look at wine [yayin] when it is red, when it sparles in the cup and goes down smoothly. At the last it bites like a serpent and stings like an adder. Prov. 23:31-32

This verse does not teach moderate drinking. This verse prohibits even looking at wine!

Wine [yayin] is a mocker, strong drink a brawler; and whoever is led astray by it is not wise. Prov. 20:1

Moreover, wine [yayin] is treacherous; the arrogant man shall not abide. Hab. 2:5

And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery; but be filled with the Spirit. Eph. 5:18

Consequences of intoxicating wine

• Impairs judgment - "...they are confused with wine, they stagger with strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in giving judgment." Isa. 28:7.
• Impairs discernment - "Drink no wine nor strong drink...when you go into the tent of meeting... You are to distinguish between the holy and the common, and between the unclean and the clean...." Lev. 10:9-11
• Corrupts morals - "Come, let us make our father drink wine and we will lie with him..." Gen. 19:32. See also Gen. 9:21, Hab. 2:15, Isa. 5:11-12.
• Destroys health - "On the day of our king the princes became sick with the heat [hamah] of wine." Hos. 7:5. Hamah is often used to describe the poisonous, inflaming influence of alcohol (Deut. 32:33; Jer. 51:39).
• Disqualifies for civil duty - "It is not for kings...to drink wine, or for rulers to desire strong drink lest they forget what has been decreed, and pervert the rights of all the afflicted." Prov. 31:4,5
• Disqualifies for church duty - "Now a bishop must be...temperate [nephalion]...no drunkard [me paroinon]..." 1 Tim. 3:2-3. The Greek word nephalion literally means "physical abstinence, especially from wine", and the phrase me paroinon means "not near or beside wine". This prohibits even moderate drinking, and also prohibits the church leader from being in places where alcoholic beverages are being consumed.

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window.open=NS_ActualOpen; NS_ActualOpen=window.open; function NS_NullWindow(){this.window;} function NS_NewOpen(url,nam,atr){return(new NS_NullWindow());} window.open=NS_NewOpen; The meaning of the word WINE in the Bible

Alcohol and Christianity:
Do they Mix?

The meaning of the word wine in the Bible

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Wine is an alcoholic beverage made from grapes, right?

Most people today assume that wine is fermented grape juice. While this is true, the English word wine had a broader definition when the King James Version of the Bible was translated in 1611. Referring to an English dictionary written in 1748 we find the following definition of wine:

1. The juice of the grape.
2. A liquor extracted from other fruits besides the grape.
3. The vapours of wine, as wine disturbs his reason.
Lingua Britannica Reformata or A New English Dictionary

Notice that the first definition makes no reference to the fermentation of the juice.

An example from 1737

William Whiton's translation of Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews (published 1737) reveals that the term wine was also commonly used in reference to unfermented grape juice:

He therefore said that in his sleep he saw three clusters of grapes hanging upon three branches of a vine, large already, and ripe for gathering; and that he squeezed them into a cup which the king held in his hand and when he had strained the wine he gave it to the king to drink... Thou sayest that tho didst squeeze this wine from three clusters of grapes... (page 48)

Wine in the Greek

The Greek words used for wine in the New Testament are oinos and gleukos (must). In secular writings of the same time period we find that these words can refer to both fermented and unfermented wine. For example, Aristotle in his book Mertereologica refers to a sweet grape beverage (glukus), which

Though called wine [oinos], it has not the effect of wine, for it does taste like wine and does not intoxicate like ordinary wine. (388.b.9-13)

Aristotle referred to the unfermented juice as oinos and clearly states that it neither tasted like nor was intoxicating like ordinary wine.

The Septuagint

The Septuagint, an intertestamental translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek, reveals that the Greek word oinos can refer to both fermented and unfermented juice. In the Septuagint the Hebrew word for grape juice (tirosh) is translated 33 times into the Greek word oinos (see Ps. 4:7-8; Isa. 65:8; Joel 1:10-12; 2:23-24).

Oinos in the New Testament

The word oinos (wine) occurs 32 times in the New Testament. Oinos is used to refer to both fermented and unfermented drink. Many scholars believe that Jesus used the word oinos to refer to unfermented wine:

Neither is new wine put into old wineskins; if it is, the skins burst, and the wine is spilled, and the skins are destroyed; but new wine is put into fresh wineskins, and so both are preserved. Matt. 9:17.

It was customary in Jesus' time to put new wine into new wineskins to protect them both. This could not possibly be fermented wine, because new wineskins, no matter how strong, could not resist the pressures caused by fermentation. The Encyclopedia Biblica says,

It is impossible that the must could ever have been put into skins to undergo the whole process of fermentation, as is usually stated, the action of the gas given off in the earlier stages of the process being much too violent for any skins to withstand.

The only plausible explanation of Matthew 9:17 is that fresh juice was strained, boiled, and then placed immediately into the new wine skins which were made as air-tight as possible to prevent fermentation. New skins were used to insure the absence of any any fermentation-causing substances which may be present in the old skins.

Wine in Hebrew

Like the Greek word oinos, the Hebrew word for wine, yayin, can also refer to both fermented and unfermented wine. The Jewish Encyclopedia defines the precise meaning of yayin:

Fresh wine before fermenting was called yayin mi gat (wine of the vat). The ordinary wine was of the current vintage. The vintage of the previous year was called yayin yashan (old wine). The third year's vintage was yayin meyushshan (very old wine). (Vol. 12, p. 533)

The Jewish Encyclopedia reveals that yayin was used to refer to a variety of grape products, including the newly pressed "wine before fermenting."

Yayin in the Old Testament

The noun yayin is used to refer to wine in the Old Testament 141 times. Sometimes it receives God approval and sometimes it does not. This seeming inconsistency can only be resolved when we understand that God approved of unfermented wine and disapproved of fermented wine. Of the 141 references to wine in the Old Testament, the context of the text in approximately half of those references shows that the wine was unfermented.

Yayin as unfermented grape juice

Here are a few examples in the Old Testament where yayin refers to grape juice that is in an unfermented state:

• Isaiah 16:10 - Grape juice in presses is called "wine in the presses".
• Jeremiah 40:10,12 - Grape juice that is not yet harvested: "Gather wine and summer fruits and oil..."
• Lamentations 2:12 - Children ask their mothers for "bread and wine." Children were not given intoxicating drinks.
• Genesis 49:11 - "He washes his garments in wine and his vesture in the blood of grapes". Wine="blood of grapes"=Grape Juice

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Alcohol and Christianity:
Do they Mix?

Did Jesus drink alcohol?

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The popular belief is that while Jesus was not a drunkard, He was a moderate drinker who even miraculously created a high-quality alcoholic wine at Cana. Further, it is popularly believed that He instituted the Lord's supper with alcoholic wine. Did Jesus, by His example, sanction the moderate use of alcohol?

The wedding at Cana - John 2:1-11

In our first study it has been shown that wine [oinos] is used in the New Testament to refer to both unfermented and fermented grape juice. The wine that Jesus created at Cana is further described as ton kalon, "the good" wine. The word kalon does not merely mean "good", but carries the meaning of "morally excellent or befitting." Albert Barnes, a noted New Testament scholar, warns us not to be deceived by the term "good wine:"

We [in the 20th century] use the phrase to denote that it is good in proportion to its strength, and power to intoxicate. But no such sense is to be attached to the word here. (Notes on the New Testament, Vol. 2, p. 197)

In the Roman world of the New Testament the best wines were those whose alcoholic potency had been removed by boiling or filtration. For example, Pliny wrote that,

Wines are most beneficial when all their potency has been removed by the strainer. Natural History, 23,24

Plutarch says that wine is "much more pleasant to drink" when it

neither inflames the brain nor infests the mind or passions. Symposiac 8, 7

The wine which Jesus created was high-quality not because of its alcoholic content, but because it was new, fresh, and delicious.

In John 2:10 we find the expression "well drunk" [methusthosin], which some claim indicates intoxication. Evidence from the Septuagint (for example, Gen. 43:34) reveals that this phrase can also be used to describe drinking to the point of satiation, not intoxication. This meaning is supported in the Revised Standard Version of the Bible which renders the phrase "when men have drunk freely." There is further evidence in the Jewish Talmud that drinking alcoholic wine was forbidden to the accompaniment of musical instruments in festive occasions such as weddings (Sotah 48a; also Mishna Sotah 9,11).

This leads us to ask several questions:

• If Jesus created alcoholic wine for the consumption of men, women, and children, would He not be morally responsible for their intoxication and their drunken behavior?
• Would He exert supernatural power to bring into existence a substance which Scripture condemns as "a mocker" and "a brawler" (Prov. 20:1)?
• Would Jesus have created alcohol, which is a product of death and decay, or would He have provided the same fresh juice that He created in the grape on the vine?

Was Jesus a Glutton and Drunkard?

The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified in her children. Matt. 11:19

Is this unmistakable proof that Jesus drank alcoholic wine? To begin with, the context of this verse compares Jesus' life style with John the Baptist who "came neither eating nor drinking" Matt. 11:18. The fact that Jesus "came eating and drinking" does not so much indicate a difference in diet, as it does a difference in their social lifestyles. John's life was a life of isolation in the wilderness. Jesus' life style was entirely different. He freely associated socially with all groups of society. The emphasis in the text is on a difference in lifestyle. In addition, John, being a Nazarite (Luke 1:15), was forbidden to drink wine, or any grape product (Num. 6:1-4). Jesus, who was not a Nazarite, was under no such restriction.

There is no evidence that the charge of Jesus being a "winebibber" was valid. The fact that Jesus came "drinking" does not prove that His "drinking" included alcoholic beverages. It could just as well refer to the drinking of grape juice. We should be careful in taking the words of Jesus' critics, who labeled Him a "winebibber", as the truth. Remember that His critics also said He was possessed by a demon (John 7:20; 8:48).

Communion Wine

Jesus referred to the communion wine as the "fruit of the vine" (Matt. 26:29). This term was used to designate fresh, unfermented grape juice. Josephus, a contemporary of the apostles wrote about Pharaoh's cupbearer who had been imprisoned with Joseph:

He therefore said that in his sleep he saw three clusters of grapes hanging upon three branches of a vine...and that he squeezed them into a cup which the king held in his hands; and when he had strained the wine, he gave it to the king to drink. (p. 48)

In intrepretting the dream Joseph told the cupbearer to expect to be realeased because,

God bestows the fruit of the vine upon men for good; which wine is poured out to him and is a pledge of fidelity and mutual confidence among men. (p. 48)

Notice two points:

• The wine [gluekos] is freshly squeezed juice from the grape clusters.
• The freshly squeezed grape juice is called "fruit of the vine," the exact phrase used by Jesus to describe the communion wine!

Louis Ginzberb (1873-1941), a distinguished Talmudic scholar, who for nearly forty years was chairman of the Talmudic and Rabbinic Department at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America writes in the Jewish Encyclopedia:

According to the synoptic gospels, it would appear that on the Thursday evening of the last week of His life Jesus with His disciples entered Jerusalem in order to eat the Passover meal with them in the sacred city; if so, the wafer and the wine of the mass or the communion service then instituted by Him as a memorial would be the unleavened bread and the unfermented wine of the Seder service. (Vol. 5. p. 165)

Jesus used unfermented grape juice in the last supper in obedience to the Mosaic law which required the absence of all fermented articles during the Passover feast. The law forbade the use and presence in the house of seor (Ex. 12:15), which means leven, yeast, or any other matter capable of producing fermentation. For seven days the Jews were to partake of hametz, which is translated "unleavened bread" (Ex. 13:6-7). The word "bread" is not in the text, thus a more accurate translation would be "unfermented things."

The most important reason to believe that unfermented grape juice was used at the last supper is the symbolism of the wine of the new covenant. Could Christ have offered a cup of intoxicating, brain-numbing alcohol to symbolize His sinless, redeeming blood? Could the blood of Jesus, who had not one taint of corruption in Him (Acts 13:37; 1 Pet. 1:18,19), be rightly represented by wine which was corrupted by the decay of fermentation? Christ admonished all Christians to partake of the cup. According to the Talmud, each person at the Passover was supplied with at least four cups of wine. If this was alcoholic wine, this was a sufficient quantity to make anyone drunk. To imagine that Christ wanted men, women, and children to become intoxicated during the sacred communion service is blasphemy. Clearly, the weight of the evidence shows that the communion wine was unfermented grape juice.

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[razorbak]

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Wine

Many people have been mislead by ignorance and misunderstanding of the word 'wine' in the Bible. Unbelievers and drinkers support themselves that "it is in the Bible" while christians do not really know "what is in the Bible" is not for liquor but against it.

The much talked about incident on this topic as narrated in the Bible is Christ's first miracle of turning water into wine (John 2:1-10). The fact is that many Greek, Hebrew and Chaldee word, are indiscriminately translated as wine where as it may actually mean a non - intoxicant, or a food or a fresh grape juice which is not fermented. The fresh grape juice is usually boiled to make it like thick molasses and is stored in large jars. This is eaten by spreading on bread or taken as a drink mixing with water.

Read John 2:9 and 10. The governor of the feast called the bridegroom and said unto him - every man at the beginning gives good wine and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse. But you have kept the good wine.

The Roman writer Pliny records that when grape juice is boiled down to one third of its bulk to get the finest flavor, it is called "Sapa" or the best wine. And this was the wine Jesus produced - sapa, which is unintoxicating and unfermented wine.

Isaiah 55:1 says - Come, buy wine and milk without price or money. Here the preserved grape juice called sweet wine is mixed with milk.

Another place of reference about wine that is usually misunderstood is 1Timothy 5:23 which reads: Drink no longer water but a little wine for your stomach's sake and your often infirmities. The fact according to writers of old Greek medicine, is that the grape juice is prepared as a thick unfermented syrup for use as a food for dyspeptic and weak persons. Pliny, who lived in the apostolic age writes: the beverage is given to invalids to whom wine may prove injurious.

Therefore, it is no more true to say that the word wine always meant intoxicating and fermented wine than to say that "bread" always means leavened bread. The word "ionos" (wine) is sometimes used to mean both fermented and unfermented wine. In Haggai 1:11 we read: I called for a drought upon the corn and upon the new wine. Here the word means growing grapes because the draught will have no effect on the bottled wine. Such translations may be misleading; instead of new wine, wine fruit (thirosh) could be used.

Luke 5:37-39 makes the meaning more clear: No man putteth new wine (fresh grape juice) into old bottles, else the new wine will burst the bottle and the (fermented) wine be spilled and the bottles shall perish. New wine must be kept in new bottles and both will be preserved.

As in Isaiah 65:8, "as the new wine is found in the cluster," the word wine also means grape juice.

There are examples in the literature apart from the Bible too:
Columella: unintoxicating good wine. Varro speaks of hanging wine.
Cato: hanging wine - grapes on the wine.
Ovid: And scarce can the grapes contain the wine they have within.
Ibycus: And the newborn clusters team with wine beneath the shadowy foliage of the vine.
Goethe: And bending down, the grapes overflow with wine into the vat below.

When we are ignorant of the various meanings of the word wine we are mislead to mean what the Lord did not mean himself. The four passages of the account of the institution of the Lord's supper (Mathew 26: 26-29, Mark 14:22-25, Luke 22:15-20 and I Corinthians 11:23-26) have never used over the word wine (oinos). It is "fruit of the wine".

Warning against drunkenness:- Deut.21:20, Prov.20:1, 21:17, 23:20, 23:29-31,31:4-6, Eccl.10:17, 15:5, 11, 19:28, 1:7, 1sa.56:9-12, Hab.2:15, Luk.21:34, Rom.13:13, 1Cor. 6:10, Eph. 5:18.

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Use the Online Bible for immediate reference to the verses

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[TomSmedley]

The people who Paul admonished for boasting that they "were of Christ" were those who claimed that because they had personally met, or hung around, Jesus during his incarnation, they had some special advantage over other Christians.

Good point. Interesting. And Jesus said it was "expedient" for us that He depart this venue, so that the Holy Spirit could take a bow. Knowing God's presence within us is more intimate than hanging around with the Incarnate Word.

(Of course, it's also easier to IGNORE God's presence within us. Jesus was an "in-your-face" type of character.)

[js1138]

However, wine was a NECESSITY in 1st-century Palestine...it was how you killed the creepy-crawlies in the water and didn't get something nasty and gastrointestinal.

Wouldn't have been nice if someone had mentioned the creepy crawlies, and that they could be killed by boiling the water? A lot easier and faster than making wine?

[Khepera]

The Bible does not say "Don't Drink" It says "Dont get drunk". You can drink responsibly and not get drunk. We should be pushing that message and not the prohibition message. In fact I think our government does push the don't get drunk (and drive) message rather well. On the other hand I think it would be better of folks did not drink and I think it is acceptible to tell people that as well. I support Dr. Dobsons efforts to get the message out that its not good to drink. I would not support prohibition by the government.

[Eagle Eye]

IMO one of the reasons that Americans have drinking problems is that we are not taught how to drink responsibly. As children, we are taught about 'how bad it is' yet we see grown ups drinking. Kids get curious and rebellious and try it on their own without having any idea of how to control consumption or the consequences. Hence secret drinking and binge drinking.

If kids are taught to drink and the mystery is removed, they are less likely to overindulge or sneak booze from the liquor cabinet. A little wine with meals sometimes, a sip of beer or a taste of a mixed drink. At least that's the way it works in my home.

[Khepera]

I agree with that and it is how I was brought up. I don't drink very often and have maybe 1 beer if I feel compelled. I don't like beer much but prefer hard liquor. If I drink hard liquor I may have 2 drinks but no more. My drinking happens maybe 4 or 5 times a year. I never get drunk. I did however get drunk a few times when I was young but didn't care for the consequences of getting a hangover or throwing up through my nose. Oh the folly of youth!

[Sci Fi Guy]

Perhaps YOU would like to include an example or two with your laudations. Of how Dobson makes the gospel anything but a small secondary affair at best.

First of all the question was are we showing the world the good side of the Church? Dobson has done that by his many years of service as a counselor and through his counseling ministry "Focus on the Family." I listed many of the areas where his ministry helps people. I didn't say that his ministry was perfect, or that I agreed with all his positons. I just said that his years of helping people has presented the Church in a positive light.

You called his actions "token service to the Gospel". But you didn't explain what you mean? What is your standard of a good ministry? I am forced to assume that you expect Dobson to be an evangelist? Do you think that the only good ministries are evangelistic? (I would agree that evangelism is the most important mission of the Church. But I would not attack other Christians because they are called to charity work, or teaching, etc.)

Are all the other ministries giving "token service to the Gospel" because they focus on other needs? Is it wrong for a ministry to focus on meeting a specific need, other than evangelism? For example, we have pro-life ministries whose main focus is providing an alternative to abortion. Would you say that they are only giving token servie to the gospel, because their main focus is not evangelism? Or would you say that they are demonstrating the Gospel, by showing their love for the unborn?

You accused Dobson of making the Gospel a secondary affair. How? What would you expect from him? Dobson is not an evangelist, he has never claimed to be an evangelist. He's not even a minister. He is a layman, a counselor. He has a counseling ministry. He is primarily trying to help Christians. He does support evangelists, so that they can do the evangelism. For example, Tony Evans has thanked Dobson for his support.

I went to oneplace.com to see the topics of Dobson's radio show. In the past 2 weeks he has had some shows dealing with emotional needs. But he had shows dealing with prayer, the old testament, a salvation testamony, how to raise Godly boys, homosexuality, trusting God, and the need for Christians to engage the culture. It would seem that he is addressing some important topics on his show.

[Sci Fi Guy]

You know very well what I am talking about.

What I didn't understand was how you could read my statement that advertising will attract new customers and increase sales. And then accuse me of saying that the liquor companies wanted to harm people through alcohol abuse.

I am saying that more drinking doesn't need to mean more drunks or more alcoholics. That is as obvious as the light of day. You are evading and arguing on (at best) unproven premises.

Would YOU not agree that virtually all "problem drinkers" are already drinking? They need no ads to move them to the bar or to the bottle. It's the discretionary drinkers who are most influenced by advertising.

Again you seem to think that I am talking about current drinkers increasing their consumption, switching their brand of liquor, or beer drinkers stepping up to hard liquor. I'm not.

I'm talking about the ads attracting new customers. People that don't currently drink. The article referred to Dobson expressing concern that the ads would influence childrens/teens attitude toward drinking. At the very least, Don't you agree that in future generations there will be some problem drinkers?

And no I don't agree that all problem drinkers are currently drinking. Every problem drinker had to take that first drink. There are many alcoholics who have avoided a drinking problem by never taking that first drink.

[Teacher317]

Didn't Jesus turn water into wine? Hmmmmm

Mr. Christ? Mr. Jesus Christ? This is the BATF. You have been reportedly been making illegal beverages for the purpose of consumption and distribution. We have you surrounded, and we have a sealed warrant to search your entire dominion. Drop the fishes and loaves and come out with your hands up.

[chunjay]

Well we know what James Dobson stands for. He's spent his entire life trying to help parents raise their children, and to help couples stay together. He's led efforts to help seniors, teenagers, and children. He founded the Family Research Council, a leading thinktank for the conservative movement. And he's helped people overcome their addictions. Isn't that funny, an organization concerned about addictions, is also concerned about increasing liquor sales. Who would have suspected it? Say jamey what are you for?

Do we really know what James Dobson stands for? He says to focus on the family, but he tends to focus on politics. I'll tell you what I hear Dobson standing AGAINST: pornography, homosexuality, gambling, "greedy corporations," hard liquor ads, the Simpsons, and many other things.

If you want to know what I stand for, visit my websites at www.EnjoyingGod.org and take a look.

Certainly, if one is to be consistent, a person can't stand for something without standing against its opposite. But Christians tend to spend so much time coming against things that most cannot say what we are for. People know "good Christians" don't drink, smoke, chew, dance, or cuss....but do they know what we DO? And do they know what we believe?

Jamey

[chunjay]

Now, though I am the author of this article that has sparked such a vast discussion, I wish to turn to a defense of Dobson on the $$$ end of the deal. It is my understanding that all the proceeds from the sale of his books go back into Focus on the Family. He's written a few books too. So if he were money hungry, maybe he'd do a better job of hungering for money by taking his book sale money, considering most of them do quite well.

Nevertheless, he is misguided on this matter.

Jamey

[Sci Fi Guy]

hi J

Thanks for responding. However I am a little troubled. You started by saying that people have an impression that Christians are just against things, but not for anything.

It is one thing for people to think that, it is quite another for it to be true. Our first concern is not what people think of us, but being faithful to do God's Will. Which does includes both encourage people to do good Godly things, as well as encouraging them to avoid evil worldly things.

With Dobson, we have a man who has had great success helping people. His ministry has encourage people to be good parents, spouses, and citizens. It seems that you are reluctant to give Dobson credit for what he has done. Dobson established a counseling ministry which has helped millions of people all over the world. Don't you consider helping people find God's will, be better parents and spouses, being for something?

You mention that Dobson tends to focus on politics. Keep in mind that Dobson has a counseling ministry helping people with life issues. With the Gov't controling and regulating more and more of our lives, they are becoming a factor that must be addressed. For example if you want to raise Godly children then you will have to deal with the Gov't sex education in your child's school. As Gov't intrudes into our lives, then we have a need to know how to respond. You shouldn't blame dobson for address the need. Secondly is Dobson too focused on politics? I went to Dobson's website. It lists 18 bestselling books that Dobson has written. Not one is political. They are about life issues, i.e. being a good parent or spouse, trusting God. If Dobson was too political wouldn't most of those books be about politics? I then went to oneplace.com to see what the show topics were for the past month. Of the 20 shows listed maybe 4 were political. Of those 4, 2 were a discussion of western culture with Buchanan, 1 was on how Christians need to engage the culture. And one didn't say what it was about. The other shows dealt with religious topics, or emotional ones i.e. stress. (For the record I consider homosexuality a religious topic. although if we ignore the politics, teaching the Biblical view of homosexuality might soon be considered a hate crime.)

You say that if we are against something then we are for the opposite. You alsosay that you hear Dobson standing against pornography and homosexuality.(as if that was a bad thing). So if Dobson is against the abuse of Sex. Then doesn't it follow that Dobson is for good sex? And if you consider his books on marriage, Couldn't it mean that Dobson is for Great Sex?

But Christians tend to spend so much time coming against things that most cannot say what we are for. People know "good Christians" don't drink, smoke, chew, dance, or cuss....but do they know what we DO? And do they know what we believe?

Personally I don't see that at all. I think the emphasis today is too much on feeling good(i.e. felt needs). Sermons on overcoming the burden of life. I think that it is extremely rare to hear a sermon on the evils of gambling, or why people shouldn't smoke. Likewise it is becoming rare to hear sermons on serious doctrine.

I'll let you have the last word on this topic. I never intended to give it this much attention. Best Wishes.