A Question for Creationists

February 5th, 2002 | Sabertooth

[Sabertooth]

A Question for Creationists

Genesis 1:

1   In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2   And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3    And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4   And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5   And God called the light Day , and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6   And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7   And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
8   And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9   And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.
10   And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good.
11   And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12   And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
13   And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14   And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15   And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16   And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day , and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.
17   And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18   And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.
19   And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20   And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21   And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.
22   And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23   And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24   And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25   And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.

26   And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27    So God created man in his [own] image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28    And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29    And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which [is] upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which [is] the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30    And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein [there is] life, [I have given] every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31    And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So there we have it, right? God created the heavens and the Earth and every living thing, including man, in six days. Six, 24-hour days.

And then…

Genesis 2:

1   Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2   And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3   And God blessed the seventh day , and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Here at the begininning of Genesis 2, we see the seventh day. Now we have seven twenty-four hour days.

So far, so good?

And then the next few lines of Genesis 2…

4   These [are] the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5   And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and [there was] not a man to till the ground.
6   But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

These verses are a recapitulation of the Genesis 1 account of creation, when God created the heavens and the earth. They further explain the antediluvian conditions on that day, before there was ever rain, when a mist would rise up from the ground and…

Wait.

The heavens were created on the second day, but there was no ground until God separated the waters from the earth on the third day of Creation. Look again at Genesis 1 : 6-10.

Genesis 1:

6   And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7   And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so.
8   And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9   And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.
9   And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry [land] appear: and it was so.
10   And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good.

How can the heavens be created on the same day there was a mist rising from the ground in Genesis 2, when these things occurred on different days in Genesis 1?

The word "day" in Genesis 1 and 2 is translated from the Hebrew "yom." It's the same word in all of the places I've highlighted in red. In fact, about 99% of the time the word "day" is found in the Old Testament, the original Hebrew is "yom."

If the word "day" in the Genesis 1 is a normal 24-hour day, rather than an allegorical phrasing for a much longer period of time (as seen elsewhere in the Bible, Ps. 90:4 and 2 Peter 3: 8 being good examples), and the word "day" in Genesis 2:4 is also a 24 hour day, we appear to have a contradiction between Genesis 1 and 2. The only way Genesis 2:4 can be reconciled is if "day" refers to a period of longer than 24 hours.

But if the word "day" is figurative in Genesis 2:4, then why not in Genesis 1?

Why does the word "day" in Genesis 1 have to mean a literal 24-hour period?

[monkeyshine]

A hot core and a cold outer shell couldn't help but produce vapor

Absolutely. Thanks.

[Sabertooth]

I'm asking the question because it's been my general observation that Evolutionists make bad theologians and that Creationists make bad scientists.

Whether or not my forefathers were monkeys has no bearing on whether or not Jesus's mother was a virgin.

Where is it written that belief in anti-Evolution is my ticket to Salvation?

Where is it demonstrated that obeisance to random causes is my ticket to wisdom?

Every time a Creationist spouts off nonsensically about Evolution running counter to Entropy, it makes a bad witness. Every time an Evolutionist perceives an "imperfect" universe as presumptive evidence of dysteleogy, they're tossing the science and reason in favor of a theological prejudice. Both show propensities for pedantic, dogmatic, even evangelical blindness.

I believe that God is the Author of the Universe, and I believe that science is an important tool for discovering His designs. In the pursuit of Truth, I don't believe it's necessary to put one's fingers on the scales.

[monkeyshine]

The water wasn't solidifed (submlimated?) until 1:6, when the waters above were separated from the waters below. So the waters were created as part of the heavens, which agrees with Rambam's seeing 1:1-2 as the creation of a matrix from which the rest of creation proceeded.

Yes, very interesting. This jibes with the comment that the waters weren't finished until day 3, as He did not say "it was good" on day two because the work was not yet perfected.

[woollyone]

"...Evolutionists make bad theologians... and Creationists make bad scientists...In the pursuit of Truth, I don't believe it's necessary to put one's fingers on the scales"

Thank you for answering my question.

Take care

[MEGoody]

What was the response given to Betrand's last question? I'm curious, because I have been under the impression that science claims there was a definitive start and there will be an end to the universe. I suppose there are some who would claim that matter has always existed, but I'd have to wonder what they base that premise on.

[Victoria Delsoul]

As with all apparent discrepancies in the Bible, we can be certain that the problems lie with our own understanding, and not with the Bible itself. The thought that the creation account must be unreliable and unscientific is due to evolutionary misconceptions, which results in the failing to find the truth in Genesis.

The most obvious understanding of the days would be that of six or seven 24-hour periods, in other words, what we know as the 24-hour calendar day. The word "day" itself is used in several different ways in Genesis 1 and 2. That the word "day" does not refer to a 24-hour calendar day also seems apparent from the account of the sun and moon not being made until the fourth day. How could there be calendar days, which equal solar days, when the sun is not yet present to mark them out? It seems quite likely that "day" represents a period of time, however short or long, in which God was accomplishing something. I think we should view the six days of creation as periods of time, even ages, in which God brought the process of creation.

"With the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day"
-- 2 Peter 3:8

[Sabertooth]

That the word "day" does not refer to a 24-hour calendar day also seems apparent from the account of the sun and moon not being made until the fourth day. How could there be calendar days, which equal solar days, when the sun is not yet present to mark them out?

Way to cut to the chase.

Why is it necessary, when delving into origins, to assume that time had the same meaning as it does now?

[Victoria Delsoul]

Why is it necessary, when delving into origins, to assume that time had the same meaning as it does now?

I don't.

[Anitius Severinus Boethius]

5 And God called the light Day , and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

A poetical creation story that science has born out to be true time and time again. For decades non-Christians have said, "How could God create light before he created the Sun?" and we now know through science that light existed before any stars were formed. The progression of creation has been discovered, first by the Word of God and then verified by science. Plants were the first life on earth followed by water life and then land animals. This is spelled out before science was invented, before the study of animals, before fossil research before any of it. God's Word is true. Then why the panic that insues if there seems to be a misunderstanding on our part of scripture? The verses quoted above I think are the most damaging to the "24 hour day" literalist interpretation. In verse 5, on the 2nd day, God creates light and darkness and calls them day and night. Then in verse 14, on the 4th day, he creates the stars (and later the Sun and Moon) in order to "divide the day from the night". But wasn't that already done in verse 5? Apparently not. If not, then how could there be morning and evening? Morning and evening are words that convey the transistion between light and dark. Without verse 14 in place, there is no division between day and night. This clearly is a oral tradition story, true as can be, that Moses put down in written form. The Word of God, which is Truth, inhabits perfectly the whole creation story told in Genesis 1. We also have the God given ability to understand that literary and poetic narrative, while containing truth, do not have to contain actuality. That's like saying that the parable of Lazerus and the rich man must have actually happened, or Jesus was telling a lie. Telling a story that incorporates truth in a way that people can understand it is not telling a lie. This is how I view Genesis chapter 1.

[sobieski]

This problem is actually resolved from science. We know that time is not constant, from the relativity theory. THere's the old "thought experiment" of two twins, one who goes on a space ship at near the speed of light who barely ages while the other twin on earth is 90 years old. From God's position (a day is like 1,000 years for him) in time it took 7 days; from ours it took eons. We just prefer to try to understand it from his point of view, but in the end, it is literally seven days for God.

[Sabertooth]

I find nothing to disagree with in what you've written. I find the Genesis account to be poetic, allegorical, and true given that context.

The one thing I would say... Moses may well have recorded an oral tradition passed down through Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc... But he may have gotten it through direct revelation as well. Not sure we can know, and it's no skin off my nose either way.

[The Raven]

The current issue of Discover has the 10 unanswered questions in physics. The Big Bang is one of them. Still many unknowns.

[Sabertooth]

When quoting my comments about Evolutionists and Creationists, you omitted the rather important qualifier, "It's my general observation that..." So my comments were not a blanket condemnation. Also, I thought my comments about the pursuit of Truth were rather balanced (pun inherent). Yet it seems on the whole, you found my reply unsatisfactory...

Mind if I ask why?

[beowolf]

A bump in thanks for two great artists....Blake and Michelangelo!!!

[Sabertooth]

Notice there is not one reference to Creation in that 1000 year phrase, it is connected to the mercy of God and His unwillingness for us to perish but to come to repentence. To use the 1000 year reference outside this is in error, the 1000 year= a Day reference was spoken about God's mercy toward us.

It doesn't logically follow that the only case where the 1000 year reference applies is in the context of God's mercy. The comment is a poetic illustration of the Eternity of God. The phrase could as easily have been a billion years.

A day, 1000 years, or 1,000,000,000 years... all are infinitesmal motes to God.

[Sabertooth]

A bump in thanks for two great artists....Blake and Michelangelo!!!

Three...

You left out the world's greatest dinosaur artist...

[apologist]

That the word "day" does not refer to a 24-hour calendar day also seems apparent from the account of the sun and moon not being made until the fourth day. How could there be calendar days, which equal solar days, when the sun is not yet present to mark them out?

In verse 1 everything was created; "heavens and earth", Hebrew phrase 'shemayim erets' (sp? I don't have my notes handy...) means everything in the physical universe, including all the stars, sun, moon, etc.

The Spirit of God is hovering over the waters of the earth in verse 2, therefore, everything from verse 2 onwards is from the frame of reference of the Spirit of God down at the earth's surface.

Early Earth's atmosphere was opaque with water vapor. God did not CREATE the stars and sun on day four, they BECAME VISIBLE on the surface of the earth (frame of reference here) as the atmosphere transformed from opaque to translucent to transparent. The Hebrew word here for "be" is 'haya' (to cause to appear) as opposed to 'bara' in verse 1 (to create anew).

So everything was in place in verse 1; it's the transformation of the earth we see in subsequent verses.

Why is it necessary, when delving into origins, to assume that time had the same meaning as it does now?

The whole argument about the nature of time itself (popular with author Gerald Schroeder in trying to blend science and Genesis) is not necessary to address the meaning of 'day'.

In English, the word 'day' has a literal meaning (24 hrs) and several figurative meanings. In Hebrew, the word 'yom', translated as day, has three LITERAL meanings, 24 hours, 12 hours (daytime), or an unspecified longer period of time. Similarly, the words translated as morning and evening were also used to designate beginning, ending, dawning, etc. It would not be an inaccurate rendering to change "the evening and the morning were the forth day" (more literally "the evening, the morning, day four) to "the beginning, the ending, epoch four." Also fits with the fact that the seventh day is not given an ending; we're still in it.

Reasons to Believe - Creation sequence

And since I don't have time at the moment to get into the purported Ge 1 vs Ge 2 conflicts:

RTB - Perspective on Genesis 2

[apologist]

The current issue of Discover has the 10 unanswered questions in physics. The Big Bang is one of them. Still many unknowns.

I'd be curious to know exactly how the Big Bang fits into the 10 questions... I'd have a hard time believing they question the idea that there WAS a Big Bang event... it's a fairly well-established and accepted theory, some details notwithstanding.

Regarding Bertrand Russell's question of who created God, physics gives us a perspective on a possible answer: the Big Bang brought about not just the creation of matter, but of space and time as well (yes, time had a beginning, fitting nicely with 2 Timothy 1:8-10 and Titus 1:1-3), so by definition, the initiator of the Big Bang would be outside of time; i.e., timeless and hence uncreated.

[xzins]

I'm not a creationist....I'm an ID (intelligent designer). ID doesn't use the book of genesis or the christian bible at all.

[CyberCowboy777]

Bump for later