One day, income tax system has got to go

Pittsburgh Tribune Review ^ | 2-03-02 | Jack Markowitz

[doosee]

It will be another year of reforming around the edges of the U.S. income tax code.

Too bad. This is a menace that's been asking for it for a long time. It deserves to be driven out of its caves and gotten off the backs of Americans.

[carenot]

They will get a prebate every month to cover neccesities. Rich folk WILL pay more because they don't buy things that are used. They will still get enough in prebates to pay for real neccesities.
Some poor families will actually be getting more money, because their income is well below poverty level.

[Bigun]

I believe that we are already seeing the development of a significant grass-roots movement to restore our political system to one that more faithfully complies with the intentions of our initial Founding Fathers.

OH YES! Of that you can be ASSURED!

This organization alone has something like 450,000 members and there are MANY more such organizations!

[carenot]

With a flat tax of any amount, we would still have IRS knowing our income.

With Fair Tax nobody would know your income.
(I like that)

Social Security will be funded with the NRST.
No payroll or any taxes taken out of your check.

[TheRedSoxWinThePennant]

MY DREAM IS THAT TRUE CONSERVATIVES TAKE CONGRESS AND BUSH PUT STEVE FORBES AS TREASURY SEC

[makingsense]

"This organization alone has something like 450,000 members and there are MANY more such organizations!"

Yes, indeed. The "powers that be" learn nothing from history. They always underestimate the power of a group of people who are armed with a moral message.

[carenot]

My dream is to see the IRS patroling our borders.They WILL need real jobs!

[carenot]

My dream is to see the IRS patroling our borders.They WILL need real jobs!

[carenot]

Sorry about that.

[Principled]

...With the retail tax, food and medical items should be exempted from all tax...

With the naional sales tax, all necessities are untaxed.

[Principled]

I disagree, though I understand the sentiment. I believe that if we were to move to a retail tax, nothing could be exempted for fear of the number of exemptions increasing over the years. A whole breed of lobbyist would be created, dedicated to showing congressmen why a certain product should be exempt.

Yes, this is exactly what would happen. THe NRST bill writers anticipated this and wrote a bill so that necessities are untaxed yet no specific item or items are exempt.

This is accomplished by proiding EVERY single individual with a prefund of taxes they'll pay on necessities in the coming month.

Think of it. Individuals will have to decide themselves (gasp) what is necessary! Their spending, up to the necessities level (poverty level as defined by HHS), is spent with zero tax liability. That's EVERY taxpayer with NO TAX on user-defined necessities.

I stress that the prefund (or prebate) is provided to ALL individuals regardless of income- there is no keeping up with what or how folks earn their money under the nrst. Bill Gates will get a prefund and so will I -

[Principled]

A poor family of 6 can currently earn close to $25,000 without paying a dime in income taxes...

Well, a poor family of 6 can currently earn close to $25,000 without THINKING they pay a dime in income taxes.

The reality is that poor folks (and everyone else FTM) are hit by embedded taxes in the prices of goods which are inflated to the tune of 20-40% to allow employers to pay income and payroll tax and compliance costs. Poor folks are also hit with lower wages that have been forced down to allow employers to pay their income taxes, payroll taxes and compliance costs.

The sales tax is a fairer way to go but, removes politicians ability to pander for votes.

This bears repeating, umgud.

The sales tax is a fairer way to go but, removes politicians ability to pander for votes.

And IMHO, makes the case for the nrst even stronger.

[Principled]

but what about large families who must buy more things including food?

THe nrst includes a prebate based on family size that prefunds the tax due on necessities to the family. Larger families get larger prefunds. I don't know the exact numbers, but it's something like $158 for each parent plus $56 per child in the home- this amount per month. Don't flame me on the amounts as I'm not sure of them, but they can be found.....perhaps a knowledgeable FReeper can provide a link to a prebate table?

[Principled]

Would the sales tax mean the end to the Social Security tax and system too?

Unfortunately, no.

The SS reform issue is left for AFTER the ability to pander for votes using income tax dollars is eliminated.

Under the nrst, payroll taxes are gone. SS tax is collected and paid from sales tax revenues.

[Principled]

I have kids but I'm a ways above the poverty level. It seems that I would pay several times what someone making the same money as I would pay if they had no kids and instead were saving up all their money.

You, not having kids, would not have to buy necessities for them, so you don't get prefunded on those necessities. And saving money is not taxed under the nrst, so if someone saves money, it is not taxed. Every individual has that opportunity. Perhaps I misunderstand your post?

If my kids then have to pay into a Social Security system that benefits them (the other family's kids), then I'd be against it.

This is exactly the situation we have now under the income tax... our kids are forced to pay into the SS system to pay benefits to others. Since this is exactly what we have now, are you also against the existing income/payroll tax?

[Principled]

The method of taxation is irrelavent.

WHile it is clearly true that the problem to overcome is too much spending, to ignore the method of collection is to not understand the scope of the problem.

Important changes take place under an nrst that substantially affect the politician's desire to spend.

For example, pols will no longer be able to tax a small group to pay for votes from a larger group; as ALL individuals pay the SAME rate ALWAYS.
Under our current system, pols only need worry about a small number of constituents when they raise taxes- but under an NRST, every single individual will be affected by any tax increase. Every single individual will have to pull a little more cash out of his pocket at the counter. Every single individual will be alienated by that pol. THAT doesn't happen now. Also, every single individual will be affected by any tax DEcrease - meaning a pol who is able to lower taxes will gain the affection of 100% of his constituents.

So I assert that the method of collection DOES make an impact on the future of spending.

It would take us from our current environment which rewards increasing taxes to an environment that punishes increases in tax and rewards tax decreases.

[Paulus Invictus]

I agree, the IRS needs to disappear and a new tax system emplaced. As a struggling small businessman, I spend far too much time and effort trying to stay ahead of all the tax forms, incomprehensible rulings and nasty IRS people. They are the new SS, above the law and a constant threat to the law-abiding. They let the biggest crooks like those that ran Enron and Global Crossings get away with a slap on the wrist plus all their winnings stashed away safely in foreign banks. It's a disgusting system.

[Principled]

This organization (Americans for Fair Taxation) alone has something like 450,000 members and there are MANY more such organizations!

THen there's the NAtional Taxpayer's Union, National Retail Sales Tax Alliance, Citizens for an Alternative Tax, Citizens Against Government Waste, National Small Business United, National Federation of Small Business, Associated General Contractors, American Farm Bureau, National Association of Manufacturers, National Small Business Survival Committee, Cato, Heritage, ......

There are several million supporters of the national sales tax (HR 2525).

[SwankyC]

I believe he once said he's been audited every year under Clinton

[lewislynn]

The whole reason underlying in the Enron mess, Global, etc... is because of out tax code.

Bullsh!t!..it's greed or poor business management plain and simple...Enron Avoided Income Taxes in 4 of 5 Years...So tell us what happened to all that tax money they didn't pay?...OH, I know, they lowered their prices, bought new, more efficient equipment, gave everybody a pay raise and hired more people.......< /sarcasm >

[Bigun]

There are several million supporters of the national sales tax (HR 2525).

Yep! And their numbers are growing DAILY!