Posted on 01/18/2002 1:10:57 PM PST by Notwithstanding
The church doors are but a block from my home-those same doors from which we removed our three children in fear of the perverted actions of sick clergy and a religion subverted by statests, left wing socialists. Those doors flow a constant stream of illiterate, ill-mannered, people who are alien in dress & speach. I know whereof I speak. Your insults do not change the fact that an institution ( & some people associated with it ) harbor and assist felons in committing felonies. It is entirely possible that in the very near future, legal sanctions may fall on those people. They might take care that they have legal advice on assisting criminals.
Mr. Buchanan certainly does ring all the correct bells. I can see people reaching for the fear button.
Second point: Your stats on current US Mass attendance are about 10 years out of date. The latest figures are more on the order of 20-30%, if my memory serves me well. So by that measure, your parish is one of the better ones. You should thank God for that. Many Americans belong to a parish without a priest assigned to it.
I still would be mighty obliged if you would answer the following question: how many vocations has your parish produced in the last 30 years? The parish where I grew up, which is has about 30,000 members and is thoroughly laden with the "spirit of vatican 2", produced exactly 1 vocation since 1970.
About 75%. See an earlier post of mine on this thread.
patent wrote:Care to substantiate this? How many FSSP priests have given Communion in the hand, where and when? How many have concelebrated Novus Ordo Masses?
The above is an exageration, but the Vatican has, IMHO, treated the FSSP rather shabily. They were supposed to get a bishop. They haven't yet. The Vatican has also been intervening in their internal affairs and undermining the authority of their superior in ways that if done to another order would produce outrage.
On the other hand, FSSP priets are not forced to celebrate the Novus Ordo, and they are free to refuse to give communion in the hand.
I've only been in this parish for ten years. In that period, three men from our parish have been ordained along with four permanent deacons.
>>>They were supposed to get a bishop. They haven't yet.
I didn't know they were supposed to get a Bishop. Who promised them that?
>>>>> The Vatican has also been intervening in their internal affairs and undermining the authority of their superior in ways that if done to another order would produce outrage.
Do you realize the liberals are whining about the exact same thing? The Vatican is exercising more and more control over a variety of groups. Its a response to the problems we have had.
>>>>>On the other hand, FSSP priets are not forced to celebrate the Novus Ordo, and they are free to refuse to give communion in the hand.
There is so often so much misinformation over this.
Dominus Vobiscum,
patent
Once upon a time the term cult only meant a system of belief. I think the change in use is not for the better. It almost implies that fervent belief in something is bad.
patent
You are also right that changes in the mass are only part of the problem.
Okay, perhaps "disgrace" is a bit strong, but my point still stands. What's considered, and objectively qualifies as, a good mass attendence rate today would have been considered poor before Vatican 2.
You cannot avoid the facts: two key measures of the health of the Church, vocations mass attendence, declined drastically after Varican 2. Other measures, such as separations, annulment requests, baptisms, and conversions also took a nose dive. Now that doesn't necessarily mean they were all caused by Vatican 2 and the fabrication of a new rite of mass, as Cardinal Raztinger puts it, but it sure looks suspicious if you ask me.
No liberal order received the same treatment as the FSSP, especially considering the things some liberal orders have done. I suggest you read up on it.
And BTW, if you think the Vatican is cracking down on modernist heretics, you are deluding yourself. Why is Richard McBrien rountinly allowed to publish heresy in diocesan newspapers around the country? Why is nothing done about American Bishops such as Weekland and Mahony flagrently violating liturgical rules and rubrics and promoting heresy at in their seminaries and convents? You can count the number of modernists cracked down upon by the Vatican since the 1960's, but those left unmolested number in the hundreds.
You cannot avoid the facts: two key measures of the health of the Church, vocations mass attendence, declined drastically after Varican 2.In the US and other Western countries, true. Vocations (or at least seminarians) are now at a higher level then pre V2 worldwide, though they haven’t risen back to pre V2 levels here in the US.
Now that doesn't necessarily mean they were all caused by Vatican 2 and the fabrication of a new rite of mass, as Cardinal Raztinger puts it, but it sure looks suspicious if you ask me.I’m relatively comfortable that the new Rite played a factor, the question to me is how much of one. I think its biggest problems stem from the translation into the vernacular, I can’t believe it was approved by the Vatican back then. The perversion of V2 by the libs caused problems as well. I’ve read the documents from the Council though, and there isn’t much in there to support the things the libs do. Bishops who stayed faithful to what the Council said and what JPII is doing have plenty of vocations. It’s the dioceses that don’t that have problems, like you mentioned, places with Weaklands and Mahoneys.
No liberal order received the same treatment as the FSSP, especially considering the things some liberal orders have done. I suggest you read up on it.My friend, I have read up on it. Should you think there is something I might have missed, feel free to point it out but it is likely I have seen it. I have also heard things about some of the liberals. I’m not going to argue over this as its just getting to be a spitting match, but sometimes it’s not just your friends who get pissed on, though that is what gets noticed. Especially when a group like the Society tries to make a big deal out of it to keep their own faithful on the Res.
And BTW, if you think the Vatican is cracking down on modernist heretics, you are deluding yourself. Why is Richard McBrien rountinly allowed to publish heresy in diocesan newspapers around the country?You first complain about the Vatican intervening in a worldwide order that exists solely because the Vatican approved it in the first place, and then you complain because the Vatican does not intervene in a plethora of Bishop’s personal newspapers? Last time I checked the Vatican wasn’t supervising what the Fraternity puts in its newsletter either, have I missed something? I doubt it, the Vatican doesn’t have the time to intervene to this level.
Why is nothing done about American Bishops such as Weekland and Mahony flagrently violating liturgical rules and rubrics and promoting heresy at in their seminaries and convents?I don’t know. This is something that does bug me, but you have to recognize it is different then the Fraternity. The Fraternity is not a Cardinal with its own geographic jurisdiction, the traditions (customs) of how you deal with each are just very different.
You can count the number of modernists cracked down upon by the Vatican since the 1960's, but those left unmolested number in the hundreds.They will die off, we won’t. I agree, I wish more were shut down.
Dominus Vobiscum
patent +AMDG
I just wanted to add something regarding the Novus Ordo. Correct me if I'm wrong, but when Paul VI introduced the Novus Ordo, he mandated it's use in the vernacular exclusively. Unfortunately, so many troublesome Latinists kept attending the immemorial mass through whatever means they could. In 1974, Paul VI allowed the the Novus Ordo to be said in Latin in order to get people to stop attending the old mass. In my view, the Novus Ordo in Latin is the worst possible way to hear mass. It just doesn't fit with the "spirit" of the Novus Ordo, since the people can't understand it, and it's motive of getting people away from the old mass seems devious and under-handed.
Excuse the bumping of an old thread. I was just researching this issue myself.
Apparently EWTN is already aware of this incident, and believes the picture is real. http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=315010&Forums=0&Experts=0&Days=2002&Author=&Keyword=Pope+Kisses+Koran&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=1&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=
I'm not sure if EWTN doesn't allow linking to their search results, so if this doesn't work, go to http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/search.asp and put in Pope Kisses Koran and you'll find the response in question, to whit:
"All that the Pope is doing is paying respect to those of other religions. Be assured that the Pope still holds that the fullness of truth resides only in the Catholic Church. Do no be disturbed by the reports of the press, who always seem to get mixed up when it comes to theological matters.
Dr. Geraghty"
Any further input on this would be appreciated. I've heard also that the picture is in dispute, but again, EWTN seems to think it's real. (that doesn't mean it is of course)
Even if it is though, I think Dr. Geraghty's response is sufficient to end the matter.
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