EXODUS 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:
EXODUS 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;
No, God did not ban art work, the difference between a statue and an idol is in how it used and treated. When someone is bowing down to them and praying to them as J2P2 is CLEARLY doing in the pictures in post 426 that is clearly idolatry.
2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new "economy" of images.
It took rome 7 and a half centuries to openly officialize idolatry, why is there nothing in the Bible that gives any information concerning this alleged "new economy" of images? As a matter of fact Paul was nearly murdered in Ephesus by the idol makers because they realized the spread of the Gospel meant the end of their livelyhood.
2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:
Your catechism clearly indicates the purpose is to create a spiritual connection, i.e. idolatry as well as in terms of Mary or other "saints" necromancy which is also forbidden.
869. "The Church is apostolic. She is built on a lasting foundation: 'the twelve APOSTLES of the Lamb' [Rev 21:14.]. She is indestructible (cf. Mt 16:18). She is upheld infallibly in the truth: Christ governs her through Peter and the other APOSTLES, who are PRESENT in their successors, the Pope and the college of bishops."
ACTS 16:16 ¶ And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying:
ACTS 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.
ACTS 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
2141 The veneration of sacred images is based on the mystery of the Incarnation of the Word of God. It is not contrary to the first commandment.
No matter how often a false doctrine is repeated it is STILL false.
You insisted on an absolute ban of graven images, but we know that the Jews did not adopt such a standard in temple worship. The Arks was adorned with images and so was the temple. You have proposed a standrd that is more Muslim than Christian. Basically We are dealing here with a difference of interpretation. . In YOUR mind it is idolatry because you think that we are adoring the statues. In OUR mind, however, we are doing the equivalent of setting a wreath before a tomb and bowing the head. But you refuse to believe this. Do you insist that we must believe what a pagan would believe if he were to do the same thing?
It took rome 7 and a half centuries to openly officialize idolatry, why is there nothing in the Bible that gives any information concerning this alleged "new economy" of images?
Christian icons began to be displayed in the 4th century when churches became public buildings and in Christian tombs long before this. If you read the history of the Second Council of Nicaea, you will learn that the matter came up only after a new Roman dynasty adopted your Jewish/Muslim doctrine.
As a matter of fact Paul was nearly murdered in Ephesus by the idol makers because they realized the spread of the Gospel meant the end of their livelyhood.
So? What has this to do with Christian veneration of images? These were images of pagan gods.
2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:
Yes, we think of images the way that radical protestants think of the bread and wine in the Eucharist, as MERE symbols of an absent spiritual power.
Your catechism clearly indicates the purpose is to create a spiritual connection, i.e. idolatry as well as in terms of Mary or other "saints"
The basic difference here is that you think that the dead are dead.But the Scripture never speaks of them as dead but asleep. You interpret this to mean that they are indifferent to us or unable to hear us.
869. "The Church is apostolic. She is built on a lasting foundation: 'the twelve APOSTLES of the Lamb' [Rev 21:14.]. She is indestructible (cf. Mt 16:18). She is upheld infallibly in the truth: Christ governs her through Peter and the other APOSTLES, who are PRESENT in their successors, the Pope and the college of bishops."
And? Your point? Do you really think that we believe that John Paul II is possessed by the spirit of Peter? Then you are nuts.
ACTS 16:16 ¶ And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: ACTS 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. ACTS 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
When we pray to the saints we are not trying to conjour up their spirits. We are simply asking of them what we ask of of our brethren in the congregation. Pray for us. Do you you not think that they are with God, and if so that their prayers not be more powerful than our own? We invoike their help for the same reason we invoke the help of highly place persons in goivernment.
When we talk to the saints, we do not expect them to answer us, anymore than we expect our beloved dead to answer us when we talk to them at the gravesite.
2141 The veneration of sacred images is based on the mystery of the Incarnation of the Word of God. It is not contrary to the first commandment.
No matter how often a false doctrine is repeated it is STILL false.
Well, we agree on this. Luther was wrong, Calvin was wrong and you are wrong.