You insisted on an absolute ban of graven images, but we know that the Jews did not adopt such a standard in temple worship. The Arks was adorned with images and so was the temple. You have proposed a standrd that is more Muslim than Christian. Basically We are dealing here with a difference of interpretation. . In YOUR mind it is idolatry because you think that we are adoring the statues. In OUR mind, however, we are doing the equivalent of setting a wreath before a tomb and bowing the head. But you refuse to believe this. Do you insist that we must believe what a pagan would believe if he were to do the same thing?
It took rome 7 and a half centuries to openly officialize idolatry, why is there nothing in the Bible that gives any information concerning this alleged "new economy" of images?
Christian icons began to be displayed in the 4th century when churches became public buildings and in Christian tombs long before this. If you read the history of the Second Council of Nicaea, you will learn that the matter came up only after a new Roman dynasty adopted your Jewish/Muslim doctrine.
As a matter of fact Paul was nearly murdered in Ephesus by the idol makers because they realized the spread of the Gospel meant the end of their livelyhood.
So? What has this to do with Christian veneration of images? These were images of pagan gods.
2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:
Yes, we think of images the way that radical protestants think of the bread and wine in the Eucharist, as MERE symbols of an absent spiritual power.
Your catechism clearly indicates the purpose is to create a spiritual connection, i.e. idolatry as well as in terms of Mary or other "saints"
The basic difference here is that you think that the dead are dead.But the Scripture never speaks of them as dead but asleep. You interpret this to mean that they are indifferent to us or unable to hear us.
869. "The Church is apostolic. She is built on a lasting foundation: 'the twelve APOSTLES of the Lamb' [Rev 21:14.]. She is indestructible (cf. Mt 16:18). She is upheld infallibly in the truth: Christ governs her through Peter and the other APOSTLES, who are PRESENT in their successors, the Pope and the college of bishops."
And? Your point? Do you really think that we believe that John Paul II is possessed by the spirit of Peter? Then you are nuts.
ACTS 16:16 ¶ And it came to pass, as we went to prayer, a certain damsel possessed with a spirit of divination met us, which brought her masters much gain by soothsaying: ACTS 16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation. ACTS 16:18 And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour.
When we pray to the saints we are not trying to conjour up their spirits. We are simply asking of them what we ask of of our brethren in the congregation. Pray for us. Do you you not think that they are with God, and if so that their prayers not be more powerful than our own? We invoike their help for the same reason we invoke the help of highly place persons in goivernment.
When we talk to the saints, we do not expect them to answer us, anymore than we expect our beloved dead to answer us when we talk to them at the gravesite.
2141 The veneration of sacred images is based on the mystery of the Incarnation of the Word of God. It is not contrary to the first commandment.
No matter how often a false doctrine is repeated it is STILL false.
Well, we agree on this. Luther was wrong, Calvin was wrong and you are wrong.
Are you claiming God contradicted himself?
NUMBERS 21:4 ¶ And they journeyed from mount Hor by the way of the Red sea, to compass the land of Edom: and the soul of the people was much discouraged because of the way.
NUMBERS 21:5 And the people spake against God, and against Moses, Wherefore have ye brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? for [there is] no bread, neither [is there any] water; and our soul loatheth this light bread.
NUMBERS 21:6 And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
NUMBERS 21:7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
NUMBERS 21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
NUMBERS 21:9 And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
II KINGS 18:1 ¶ Now it came to pass in the third year of Hoshea son of Elah king of Israel, [that] Hezekiah the son of Ahaz king of Judah began to reign.
II KINGS 18:2 Twenty and five years old was he when he began to reign; and he reigned twenty and nine years in Jerusalem. His mother's name also [was] Abi, the daughter of Zachariah.
II KINGS 18:3 And he did [that which was] right in the sight of the LORD, according to all that David his father did.
II KINGS 18:4 He removed the high places, and brake the images, and cut down the groves, and brake in pieces the brasen serpent that Moses had made: for unto those days the children of Israel did burn incense to it: and he called it Nehushtan.
II KINGS 18:5 He trusted in the LORD God of Israel; so that after him was none like him among all the kings of Judah, nor [any] that were before him.
II KINGS 18:6 For he clave to the LORD, [and] departed not from following him, but kept his commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses.
Let me e-x-p-l-a-i-n s-l-o-w-l-y in NUMBERS 21:4-9 God says make a brass serpent and do what? [{ LOOK at it }], nothing more, nothing less.
In II KINGS 18:1-6 same brass serpent, but now people are doing what? [{ Burning incense to it }] gee would that be a form of "veneration"?
Christian icons began to be displayed in the 4th century when churches became public buildings and in Christian tombs long before this. If you read the history of the Second Council of Nicaea, you will learn that the matter came up only after a new Roman dynasty adopted your Jewish/Muslim doctrine.
What happened it the 4th century was that romes' pagan religious leaders saw the writing on the wall. Over 3 centuries of roman butchery only caused the spread of the Christianity, therefore in 352 A.D. the roman emporer constantine invited the Christian Churches that rome had not been able to wipe out to send representatives to form a church council in rome. Only those willing to betray the Gospel in order to save their own lives joined constantine, your first pope. Many of the pagan temples were redecorated, but kept their same idols called by different names, the first crop of "catholic saints".
869. "The Church is apostolic. She is built on a lasting foundation: 'the twelve APOSTLES of the Lamb' [Rev 21:14.]. She is indestructible (cf. Mt 16:18). She is upheld infallibly in the truth: Christ governs her through Peter and the other APOSTLES, who are PRESENT in their successors, the Pope and the college of bishops."
And? Your point? Do you really think that we believe that John Paul II is possessed by the spirit of Peter? Then you are nuts.
Excuse me? That is what YOUR catechism states. It is bad enough that you reject Biblical authority, now you're rejecting catechism too.
When we pray to the saints we are not trying to conjour up their spirits. We are simply asking of them what we ask of of our brethren in the congregation. Pray for us. Do you you not think that they are with God, and if so that their prayers not be more powerful than our own? We invoike their help for the same reason we invoke the help of highly place persons in goivernment.
When we talk to the saints, we do not expect them to answer us, anymore than we expect our beloved dead to answer us when we talk to them at the gravesite.
I TIMOTHY 2:1 ¶ I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
I TIMOTHY 2:2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
I TIMOTHY 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
I TIMOTHY 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
I TIMOTHY 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
I TIMOTHY 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
I TIMOTHY 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, [and] lie not;) a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.
I TIMOTHY 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
JOHN 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.