Posted on 01/02/2002 1:15:38 PM PST by Theresa
There is considerable confusion about the Catholic teaching of salvation. I found this on the internet. It was written by a former Presbyterian who became Catholic as an adult. It should be easy to understand he explains the docterine very well. .........
The phrase (in Latin, "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" or "Outside the Church there is no salvation") is a very ancient one, going back to the very early days of Christianity. It was originally meant to affirm the necessity of baptism and Christian faith at a time when
(a) A number of Christians were being tempted under torture to renounce their faith and deny Christ. (He's talking about the Roman Empire and Nero's persecution of Christians, throwing them to lions and such.) (b) Large groups of Christians were being led into "pseudo-Christian" cult-type groups, which were actually just a front for pagan philosophy and religion. (Such as the cult of Mithras which I think was practiced around the time after Jesus died.)
In response, bishops repeated that, if a person were to be aware of the meaning of Christ and then freely deny him or reject him, they had essentially turned away from God and the salvation he offers.
As Christians, we believe that we are saved only through Jesus. As St. Peter reminds his audience in Acts 4:12: "There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among mortals by which we must be saved." In most cases, this means that we believe baptism in water, in the name of the Trinity, is the fundamental requirement for salvation.
However, even from the beginning, the great Christian writer and teacher St. Augustine said that the salvation imparted through baptism can also be imparted through other means: specifically, through the "baptism of blood" (a non-Christian who dies defending Christian beliefs or holy places) and "the baptism of desire" (a non-Christian who has expressed a firm desire to become a Christian, and who shows all the signs of living a Christian life, but who dies before baptism). In both of those cases, the Church has always recognized that the Holy Spirit leads people to God in ways which we cannot always explain or document.
God is able to save anyone he chooses. We trust that he often does this is ways that are not obvious to us, within the hearts of individuals who are sincerely seeking the truth. Otherwise, it would imply that all of humanity was excluded from salvation before Christ came, and that much of humanity (which has not had the opportunity to hear the Christian message until recently) was doomed to be eternally separated from God. This would imply a very cruel and elitist God. Our belief as Christians and Catholics is that God desires the salvation of all people … even those who are not Christian. How he achieves that, however, is a mystery. But we know that our God is a loving God who would not allow people to suffer on account of an ignorance that they were not responsible for.
The Church teaches that baptism, faith, and a life lived in Christ are necessary for salvation. However, Vatican II also taught that, within every human heart, God places the law of conscience. Everybody has a deep sense of right and wrong which ultimately comes from God, and which will lead people to God if they attempt to follow their conscience faithfully. Because Jesus is God, those who move in the direction of God (even non-Christians) are ultimately moving in the direction of Jesus. And if they are moving in the direction of Jesus and His truth, ultimately they are expressing a desire for the salvation that God gives. The Church teaches that, while it is certainly easier to receive salvation as a Christian, it is not impossible to receive salvation in other religions.
This is a challenging situation: on one hand, we must be respectful of the good things to be found in other faiths, and encourage people to live their faiths with sincerity and love.
On the other hand, this does not mean that all religions are the same. We believe that Christ is the ultimate revealing of God to the world, and that the more we know about his message, the greater the chance that we will accept his offer and be saved. We must therefore continue to preach the message of the Gospel, and encourage interested non-Catholics to examine the claims of our faith, without in any way coercing or intimidating them.
Father Feeney was an American priest who, back in the 1940s, taught that if a person was not a Roman Catholic, they were condemned to hell. This has never been the accepted teaching of Catholicism, and Father Feeney was reprimanded by the Vatican for his mistaken understanding.
Nevertheless, there are groups which continue to hold to this strict interpretation, even after the Pope and bishops have specifically rejected it.
The phrase "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" teaches us that salvation is only through Christ, the Way, the Truth and the Life. But God is able to save whomever he pleases, whether they are baptized in the Roman Catholic Church or not.
It is important to remember that "the Church" in this phrase does not refer exclusively to the Roman Catholic Church. Salvation is a great gift, and God is a loving Father who wants all of his children to receive it. How he works this out, however, we will only understand in heaven. That is why, whenever we quote "Outside the Church, there is no salvation", we should also remember that "God is in no way bound by the sacraments."
Until then, we continue to proclaim Jesus as Lord (evangelization) and engage in respectful dialogue with followers of other religions, to discover the truths that God had revealed to them to guide them toward salvation, and to share with them the truth as we have discovered it in Christ.
St. Luke's gospel (1:48), when she prophesied under the Holy Spirit, "Behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed."
There is a wonderful article about Catholic teaching on Mary here.
http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/key2mary.htm There are more biblical quotes too. The man who wrote it used to be Protestant.
Okay that's it for me. At least for tonight.
Oh thank you! That was such a nice interlude. I really love that song. Top 10. I also love Ode to Joy! And I love Resucito!
Oh me too that's why I stole it from another discussion site. I know what's in the bible but I am not good at saying okay go to this chapter and such and such verse ....I just say, "The bible says...
I am going to the Art Forum now. If I stay here all night I will never learn to paint landscapes, which is my New Year's resolution. Wish me luck everybody.
A direct command was given by Jesus Christ to not call any one Father in a Spiritual way? The priests in a parish are the spiritual guides of the people who go to the church they pastor. How can this not be breaking the command Jesus gave? Breaking a direct command of Jesus is not a tempest in a teapot IMO.
Becky
The "Father" that is being spoken of in these verses is not a man, but God himself.
Becky
Another favorite from Focus is their use of "Saint Anthony Chorale":
http://frontpage.uk.digiserve.com/musicforpianos/midifiles/Classical/Haydn/jhsach.mid
Becky
You quoted a scipture out of context. Not me. I quoted several scripture verses that put your verse in context. Plus I posted links to further explain my case. I gave you context. It is up to you to tell me why the context I provided does not uphold my case.
"I have been giving you answers to all you questions. Could you please answer mine. "
It seems I am doing all the work here. That won't do. You parcel out one-liners from the bible. I have given reams of quotes and links to various sites where you can get more information.
"I have heard that is what a catholic apologist will do, never answer a question directly. Please prove them wrong:)"
I answered your question about why we call priests father. We do it in the sense that priests are our father in the faith. It is done in the same sense as Paul who called himself our father in the faith. I quoted letters from the gospel where Christians address the apostles as fathers in the faith. If Paul held the same interpretation of Christ's words that you do, he would not call himself a "father in the faith."
"After saying only "One is your Father," Jesus proceeded to declare, "And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ."6 Yet He Himself acknowledged Nicodemus to be a "teacher of Israel."7 And in the church at Antioch certain men were called "prophets and teachers."8 Then again, the Apostle Paul not only recognized teachers as gifts of God to the Church,9 but he also did not hesitate to call himself "a teacher of the Gentiles."10 Furthermore, in this present day, almost all of us have at one time or another called certain people Sunday School teachers. The discussion thus goes far beyond any Protestant-Catholic lines. Therefore, in saying we should call no one "father" and "teacher," except God the Father and Christ Himself, the Lord Jesus appears not to be taking issue with the use of these particular titles in and of themselves. The CONTEXT of the passage gives us the interpretive key we are looking for. In this "call no man father" passage, our Lord is contending with certain rabbis of His day who were using these specific titles to accomplish their own ends. And had these same apostate rabbis been using other titles, such as "reverend" and "pastor," Jesus, it seems to me, would have said of these as well, "Call no one reverend or pastor."
This HAS been an educational thread, for me. See post #57; I never knew that.
Simon helps Jesus carry the cross. We meditate on this and learn that we must help each other bear our crosses in life.
How many time do you gotta think about it? You will, or you won't.
Not catholic.
Blindness is deep.
pa-ter-ni-ty, Fatherhood; the fact of being a father; derivation from a father; as, the child's paternity; origin; authorship
To me, looking at all the quotes, I agree with Theresa and Catholic teaching, because Jesus goes on to use the term Father Himself, 'your Father Abraham', so do St. Paul, St. John, etc.
You: St. Luke's gospel (1:48), when she prophesied under the Holy Spirit, "Behold, from now on all generations will call me blessed."
You: You quoted scripture out of context.
I am quoting scripture out of context.!!!??? How does your verse answer the question that I asked about Mary which was that Mary is still alive. Being blessed does not in any way mean she is still alive. Don't get me wrong I believe Mary was a blessed women, I'm sure all christians would agree with that. But Mary was still a sinner. She needed a savior as did the rest of us. She died, and went to heaven, no doubt. But she died.
Becky
None of the apostles ever told anyone to call them father. Paul referred to himself as a father in the sense that it was he who first brought those people the gospel.
1 Cor. 4:15 For though ye have then thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
I have begotten you: I is emphatic, producing the thought,"I- rather than your ten thousand instructors-am responsible for the beginning of the Christian assembly." The term begot does not so much denote the conversion of these people, but that Paul laid the foundation (1Cor. 3:10)
Becky
Well I don't know why you are putting the words "I am responsible for the beginning of the Christian assembly" in Paul's mouth. He does not say that. What he says is: "You have in Christ ten thousand teachers, but not many fathers, because in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through announcing the gospel. Therefore I exhort you to become imitators of me" (1 Cor. 4:15).
Actually Becky, I think Paul is saying that preaching the good news constitutes his fatherly begetting of children, making him their spiritual father. Furthermore, he requests that they imitate him, not only in good behavior (being a guide or instructor or teacher) but ALSO by bringing others to spiritual rebirth through preaching the Gospel of Christ Jesus. In other words he is saying it great to be a good example to other Christians (guide) but you should also be fathers and evangelize and beget Christians in the faith the same way I do. He is telling them to go be Fathers too. And that is the very same sense in which Catholics call priests father.
Below is some more information. It is by Father Pacwa a priest on the Catholic TV channel EWTN. Other Christian men are treated as or called fathers besides St. Paul. Timothy is instructed, "Do not rebuke a presbyter, but exhort him as a father, young men as brothers, elder women as mothers, and young women as sisters in all purity" (1 Tim. 5:1-2). Presbyter, the Greek word from which we derive "priest," meant both elder and church leader. Certainly this text does not instruct Timothy to address older men as fathers, nor does it necessarily refer to priests, even though it speaks of presbyters. It does require us to look upon other members of the Church in family relationships, with the love and respect that belongs to family.
Conclusion
First, we have a clear authorization from Scripture to call our parents and our religious leaders father or mother. Though Christ our Lord gives us an important admonition not to let any human become equal or more important than God our Father or Christ our teacher and rabbi, yet neither should we deny that certain people in the Christian community are our spiritual parents. This derives from the nature of Christianity, which offers us not a philosophy or ideology but new life and rebirth in Christ, modeled on birth into family life and its inheritance.
The priest is a prime candidate for the title of spiritual father. By his training and ordination into the sacrament of Holy Orders he is commissioned by the Church to proclaim the gospel, the incorruptible seed of the word of God. This office charges him to speak officially for the Church, not for his own peculiar opinions, since the goal is rebirth of fellow Christians, not the promotion of a particular theological position.
Should any priest demand honors and privileges by virtue of his ordination? Our Lord's warnings to the Pharisees in Matthew 23 preclude any hypocritical grab for earthly rewards, and every spiritual father or mother must eschew such things. On the other hand, it is right for us to honor priests, our spiritual fathers, even as God commands us to honor our natural fathers. Instead of a functionary performing services, see the priest as a father within the Christian community. They, and those spiritual mothers who teach us and nourish our faith, need our support and love, just as we need them. Together all of us can appreciate our various "roles of service for the faithful to build up the Body of Christ, until we become one in faith and in the full knowledge of God's Son, and form the perfect man who is Christ come to full maturity" (Eph. 4:12
This sounds like a boast. Your interpretation makes Paul seem "uppity."
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