Posted on 12/30/2001 7:44:36 PM PST by Sparkvark
No, your salvation is dependent on Christ's having obeyed His word perfectly.
Well, yes, but what do you suppose salvation is? It is not salvation from the consequences of sin, it is salvation from sin. Or, maybe you would like to refute these:
John 5:28&29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Rev. 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
1 Cor. 6:9&10 ¶ Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Matthew 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh. 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Of course you can just explain these away if you like.
Beware, the Gospel must be obeyed:
2 Thess. 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
Hank
Introduction
Usually, people prefer to remain silent concerning a matter which they know nothing about and do not understand. This, of course, is completely sensible. Let us imagine, for example, a person who knows nothing about chemistry but who, nevertheless, constantly insists upon interfering in the affairs of chemists. He corrects their scientific formulae which have been obtained with great difficulty, changing their order or replacing one with another. We would agree that such a person is acting with the highest degree of imprudence and that we can only have pity for him.
There is one field, however, in which too many people consider themselves to be complete masters, in fact, almost legislators; that is the area concerning the Christian faith and the Church.
In this field also, clear and definite formulae have been established with a great effort of theological thought, spiritual guidance, faith, and piety. These formulae are established and must be accepted on faith.
Regardless of this fact, a great many people enter into the questions of faith and the Church solely as bold and decisive reformers who want to remake everything according to their own personal desires. In cases where such people have insufficient knowledge or understanding, they are especially averse to remaining silent.
To the contrary they begin not only to speak, but to shout. Such shouting on the questions of faith and the Church usually finds the columns of newspapers and the ordinary conversations of people who, in general, very seldom think of faith and the Church at all. If they do think of such things, they prefer to voice themselves exclusively in an authoritative and accusatory tone.
It is even possible to introduce evidence from outside the Church. It is well known how the Protestants have distorted the idea of the Church, preaching some kind of teaching about an "invisible" Church.
This teaching is so vague, obscure and indefinite, that a Lutheran theologian, in an official report at the Diet of Speyer in 1875, declared:
"Our Protestant teaching about the Church still distinguishes itself with such vagueness and inconsistency, that it can be called the Achilles' heel of Protestantism."
When I named my son "Christian" the name book says "Follower of Christ" and that's the simple definition. But what does "follow" mean? Jesus Christ said many times "follow Me".
And he said to [them] all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. Luke 9:23
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.Matthew 16:24
He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. Mat 10:37-38
190 akoloutheo {ak-ol-oo-theh'-o}
1) to follow one who precedes, join him as his attendant, accompany him
2) to join one as a disciple, become or be his disciple
2a) side with his party
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.Luke 14:26-27
Disciple: 3101 mathetes
a learner, pupil, disciple from: 3129 manthano {man-than'-o} learn 24, understand 1; 25
1) to learn, be appraised
1a) to increase one's knowledge, to be increased in knowledge
1b) to hear, be informed
1c) to learn by use and practice
1c1) to be in the habit of, accustomed to
Doesn't anyone want to engage in what a discussion?
Protestantism.
The truth of the Church was greatly distorted in the West after Rome had fallen away from the Church. In the West, God's kingdom began to be viewed more as an earthly kingdom.
Latinism obscured the Christian concept of the Church in the consciousness of its members with its legalistic account of good deeds, its mercenary relationship to God and its falsification of salvation.
Latinism gave birth to a legitimate, although very insubordinate, offspring in the form of Protestantism. Protestantism was created from the soil of humanism which was not a religious phenomenon; on the contrary, all its leading ideas are purely earthly, human.
It created respect for man in his natural condition. Protestantism, having carried over the basis of humanism into the religious field, was not a protest of genuine ancient Church Christian consciousness against those forms and norms which were created by medieval Papism, as Protestant theologians are often inclined to claim. Far from it; Protestantism was a protest on the very same plane.
It did not re-establish ancient Christianity, it only replaced one distortion of Christianity with another, and the new falsehood was much worse than the first.
Protestantism became the last word in Papism, and brought it to its logical conclusion.
Just as the faith in the Church is inseparably linked with the acknowledgement of the divinity of Christ the Savior, so the denial of the Church unfailingly leads ultimately to the denial of the incarnation of the Son of God, the denial of the divinity of Jesus Christ.
It is not at all necessary for Him to be a God-man in order to give some kind of teaching. Christ's state of being God-man is necessary only when He is seen as the Savior, Who poured out strength into human nature and Who founded the Church.
In actual fact, is this inseparable tie between the truth of the Church and the truth of His being the Son of God not seen from the words of Jesus Christ Himself?
Simon Peter said: "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. Then Jesus said to him: thou art Peter, and upon this rock" (i.e., on the truth of the God-incarnation which Peter confessed). "I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:16, 18).
The ancient Church, in a special effort, with all its strength, defined this truth of the one-essence of the incarnate Son of God with God the Father, because it thirsted for a real renewal of human nature, for the re-creation of the "new creature," i.e., of the Church.
The internal motivating force of all the dogmatic movements of the fourth century was the unshakable belief in the fact that the Son of God is the second person of the Holy Trinity, Who came down to earth, became man, revealed the mysteries of the Kingdom of God, founded His Church on earth, suffered for the sins of mankind and, having conquered death, arose from the dead, opening the path for the deification of man, not only in soul, but in body.
Why was the battle with Arianism so strenuous? Why did the Arians meet with such a repulse that Saint Athanasius the Great, that pillar of Christ's Church, refused them the name of "Christian"?
(my bold
When they somehow contrive to overlook the teaching about the Church in it, then all that remains of Christianity is the teaching, so powerless to re-create life and man, as is every philosophical system.
Our forebears, Adam and Eve, sought to become "like gods" without God, relying on the magical power of the beautiful "apple." This is how many of our contemporaries dream of being saved: with the Gospel, but without the Church and without the God-man.
They hope on the book of the Gospel exactly as Adam and Eve hope on the paradise apple.
There were so many good comments here. I think soundsolutions summed it up best for me, but gosh, so many others did too.
IMO, no. Merely professing oneself as a Christian does not make you one.
How do I perceive the Christian faith? The FAITH is good. Many denominations with a man or a women telling me what the Bible says is not good.
This is what I personally believe.
The Bible in it’s entirety is the inspired word of God. No if’s, and’s, or but’s about it for me personally. I believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and was the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament. I believe He obeyed his fathers will and died for my sins to save me from eternal death. I believe I must be baptized, immersed in his symbolic blood and rise up out of the water symbolizing his resurrection. I believe I must repent of my sins and TRY to live a righteous life, with God’s help of course. I believe Christianity is a relationship with the Lord.
I also believe in tolerance of other faiths. Several pointed out that it’s God’s authority who will decide who is going to heaven and who won’t be going there. I won’t begin to tell someone they are going to hell, because they don’t believe like me. That’s just my opinion.
I worship at the church of Christ but refused to be labeled as a “church of Christer”. I am an independent Bible student and have serious issues with authority telling me what they want me to believe. I will listen to authority, but will decide for myself after intense study of the original Greek or Hebrew exactly what the Lord is telling me, thank you very much.
I believe a true Christian must act like one and behave appropriately. I believe they must remain humble. I believe they must love their enemies. They must strive to be Christ like. No not perfect, just kind, gentle, loving, generous, and compassionate, while remaining firm in ones beliefs and not to be afraid of driving the tax collectors out of the temple.
A friend of Christ.
Someone who wants to introduce others to the best friend a person can have.
No, ALL of your salvation has been done for you. IT IS FINISHED. You can add nothing to His perfect work. What you add would be tainted by sin. All you can "do" is respond in thankfulness. As a child of God, the "new man" in you does not _want_ to sin. But the "old man" will struggle against that. In faith, you do not want to sin. So why do you ask whether what you do matters? How does your Friend Jesus want you to act? Does He want you to blaspheme, curse, steal and kill? No, and as His friend, you don't want to. So why ask how much you can sin and still be saved?
Hank, what a horrible lie. The consequences of our sin are eternal death, punishment and separation from God. Don't you need salvation from those? Jesus took exactly those consequences upon HIMSELF.
Actually, the Orthodox church came before the Roman Catholic church...
Someone who begins to understand that there must be more to them than this life.
They then realize that there is a God, and that this God is prepared to grant them eternal life...the catch being that they must be completely without sin in the eyes of God to gain life.
They then realize they are a sinner...in other words, someone who realizes that the 10 commandments are the "letter of the law" and that they have fallen far short of it.
The person than realizes that they can't possibly hope not to violate the law on their own. They eventually come to the realization that they need to acknowledge that Christ died so he could act as a high priest for us in the sight of God.
The person than gets baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, has hands laid on him by a minister of God, and then receives the gift of God's holy spirit.
God's spirit then leads the person to find and eliminate sin in their life.
When the person dies, they sleep until the return of Christ, at which time they are "born again" with a new spiritual body.
That is a Christian.
Someone who begins to understand that there must be more to them than this life.
They then realize that there is a God, and that this God is prepared to grant them eternal life...the catch being that they must be completely without sin in the eyes of God to gain life.
They then realize they are a sinner...in other words, someone who realizes that the 10 commandments are the "letter of the law" and that they have fallen far short of it.
The person than realizes that they can't possibly hope not to violate the law on their own. They eventually come to the realization that they need to acknowledge that Christ died so he could act as a high priest for us in the sight of God.
The person than gets baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, has hands laid on him by a minister of God, and then receives the gift of God's holy spirit.
God's spirit then leads the person to find and eliminate sin in their life.
When the person dies, they sleep until the return of Christ, at which time they are "born again" with a new spiritual body.
That is a Christian.
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