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To: Exnihilo
Evolution also forgets to take into account THERMODYNAMICS. This applies even to such things as you and I. To paraphrase, "All complex systems degenerate into entropy."
How convenient to forget that, eh? Evolution states just the opposite, "Entropy degenerates into complex systems."
I've always thought this was an interesting question... no-one has ever seriously explained it away. Tried, but failed. They go back to a faith based answer of "It just is."

My favorite explanation for evolution runs this way. You have two computers, and one unfinished computer in the corner. To make an operating system for it, you pirate half the code from one and half the code from the other system and randomly mish mash them together. And hope that it works. (Hopeful monster). Or it's an asexual system, the first system copy&pastes it's o.s. onto the new system.. how many of these could go on without errors? Not many, and not reliably. Evolution is the same way, no matter how badly they try to say it isn't. And it is a religion. It takes faith to believe in it.

They really hate it when you point out that their god is an amoeba.

63 posted on 12/31/2001 1:41:03 PM PST by Darksheare
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To: Darksheare
Evolution also forgets to take into account THERMODYNAMICS. This applies even to such things as you and I. To paraphrase, "All complex systems degenerate into entropy." How convenient to forget that, eh? Evolution states just the opposite, "Entropy degenerates into complex systems."

How convenient to misstate the 2nd Law, eh? :-) The REAL 2nd Law says something more like, to paraphrase, "all complex systems require outside energy input and/or an outside entropy sink to keep from degenerating." Or IOW, "all living things must eat." We get our outside energy from the Sun, via plants & other tasty animals that also eat them, & give off heat in the process, which is radiated out into space. Computers use 110 volts & likewise heat up in the process. The Thermodynamics Police are happy.

Please check out these links, from The Ultimate Creation vs. Evolution Resource (12th ed.):

Thermodynamics

  1. ENTROPY and the Second Law of Thermodynamics!

  2. The 2nd law of thermodynamics

  3. The Second Law of Thermodynamics!

  4. The Second Law of Thermodynamics in the Context of the Christian Faith


65 posted on 12/31/2001 3:00:05 PM PST by jennyp
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To: Darksheare
To paraphrase, "All complex systems degenerate into entropy."

Ummm... You paraphrased wrong. All enthalpy transfers generate entropy. Thermodynamics says nothing about complexity and what you said doesn't make sense. Entropy and complexity are not the same thing, though I have seen it repeatedly used that way here.

82 posted on 01/01/2002 3:19:09 PM PST by tortoise
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To: Darksheare
Evolution states just the opposite, "Entropy degenerates into complex systems." I've always thought this was an interesting question... no-one has ever seriously explained it away.

Two points: First, evolution says nothing about the creation of increasingly complex information structures; it can go either way. It just turns out that our environment sometimes allows slightly more complex systems to survive as more sophisticated organisms are usually more adaptive. Second, I don't think entropy means what you think it means, and "complexity" is utterly non-descriptive when talking about thermodynamics. Everything involving thermodynamics is in terms of entropy and enthalpy; there are only four components to the Gibb's free energy equation, and "complexity" isn't one of them.

83 posted on 01/01/2002 3:30:01 PM PST by tortoise
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To: Darksheare
The law of Thermodynamics somehow kills the theory of Evolution? What turnip truck did you fall off of?

There is energy, eg: the SUN!! The law of thermodynamics is not at all broken by the theory of Evolution, and whomever told you it did, was either ignorant or a liar.

There is energy coming to earth ALL the time, The plants create thier own food with it, which is then food for animals, which is then food for carnivores, it all starts with the SUN..... That is where the energy for life comes from, no entropy there, it is always replenished.

How is the law of Thermodynamics broken by the theory of evolution, I really really want to know!!
103 posted on 01/06/2002 6:08:47 PM PST by Aric2000
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To: Darksheare
"Evolution also forgets to take into account THERMODYNAMICS."

No, definitely not.

"To paraphrase, 'All complex systems degenerate into entropy.'"

No, the proper paraphrase is that the entropy in any CLOSED SYSTEM increases. The earth is not a closed system, since energy comes from the sun. It's the energy from the sun that allows complex systems to form on earth.

"How convenient to forget that, eh? Evolution states just the opposite, 'Entropy degenerates into complex systems.'"

Do you honestly think that we mechanical engineers would allow biologists to "forget" (disregard) the laws of thermodynamics? Not bloody likely!

"I've always thought this was an interesting question... no-one has ever seriously explained it away."

I just did. And literally thousands of people knowledgable about thermodynamics have tried to explain this simple fact (that earth isn't a closed system, so entropy on earth need not always increase) to folks like you, but y'all (Southern expression) simply aren't listening.

"And it is a religion."

No, evolution is a testable scientific theory.

If one BELIEVED in evolution, one would indeed need faith. But scientifically oriented people like me don't BELIEVE in evolution. We simply recognize it as by far the most compelling theory for why plants and animals look like they do...and, in a larger sense, have the DNA they have.

116 posted on 01/09/2002 1:47:51 PM PST by Mark Bahner
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