Posted on 12/29/2001 9:27:49 AM PST by Demidog
I am not an America hater by any stretch of the imagination. Nor are the plethora of folks calling for a re-examination of our foreign policies. But that's what we're called.
I wish I knew why.
I really don't want to be against any American. I don't like being on the butt end of insults. So if there were a way to somehow explain what it is that bothers me about our foreign policy without the resultant cries of "traitor! treason! Islam firster!" I would.
One of the main problems apears to be that any "agreement" with bin Laden and his band of murdering thugs is seen to be support. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is probably true that bin Laden knows that water is tantamount to life in the desert. If I agree with this, I am no more supporting bin Laden than you are by agreeing.
When we decry any actions taken by Israel, we are "anti-semites." When Israel admitted that they had set a booby trap near an area where children played and 5 Palestinian boys died when it went off, you couldn't get near the topic without being ridiculed.
This is puzzling to me. There is nothing wrong per se with Israel and certainly not Jews, but for certain they are not perfect. For some, Israel is perfection and any criticism is tantamount to racism. Those who disagree are shouted down with such fervor it makes one pause.
American policies aren't perfect either. It is arguable for instance that John Wayne's death from cancer could be attributed to nuclear tests performed back in the 40's. Movie locations happened to be in the area where tests occurred. Many film industry professionals who worked on movies filmed in Nevada died from cancer including that great American we called "the Duke."
Many soldiers who were in the vicinity of those tests also died from cancer.
Why is it an indictment on all of America to bring such mistakes to light? In general, the American population has no say so in the slightest regarding these sorts of activities nor do they have much say in our foreign policy.
But as usual, it is the American population that has to accept the consequences of Policy mistakes made by the government. To say that those who object to this "hate America" is completely absurd.
The truth is quite the opposite.
I love America. And those who decry our foreign policy blunders and the theft of our hard earned money that is necessary in order to carry out these blunders also love America. We're simply tired of having to pay the price for those mistakes, while those who carry them out never have to suffer the consequences.
One of the most bizarre claims by those who are calling us "America haters" and "Islam firsters" is that terorrists are simply angry that we are so democratic as a nation and love freedom. These terrorists "hate freedom" and thus hate America and Americans. They're "jealous," in other words, of our prosperity.
This is about as brilliant an analysis as claiming that Timothy McVeigh was upset that he was no longer an employee of the federal government and thus took out his jealosy and rage on that same federal government.
It is the analysis of the simpleton.
The fact is, we only know what the terrorists claim. Not that it matters much. The opinions of mass murderers are not that important. Clearly however, this is not what any of the terrorists are saying. What they are saying is that they believe themselves to be oppressed by our foreign intervention.
When students took Iranian embassy employees hostage, their reason given for such extraordinary measures was American meddling in Iranian internal affairs.
The Shah of Iran was our personally hand-picked leader for their country. The CIA had, in the time period between the time we basically annexed Iran during WWII, purposefully destroyed opposition to the Shah by using tactics they had learned in South America.
None of those tactics were even remotely related to "freedom" or the principles upon which this nation was founded. They were the actions of a government that believed the Iranian people were chattle and were not worthy of chosing their own leadership.
So what happened? A number of Americans paid the price for our meddling. When we allowed the Shah to enter America to receive medical treatment, the last straw was put upon the back of that proverbial camel.
And that is not to mention the American lives that were sacrificed in a botched rescue attempt. For some, these lives are expendable. They are the price a nation pays for being a "super power." I agree with that assesment. But I don't think we need to be a superpower. I don't think we need to meddle in the affairs of other nations in order to protect our borders.
As is proven time and time again, such meddling has a high price.
And therein lies the rub. Dying in order to defend this nation from an attacking force is national defense and is noble. Sending young men and women across the globe to secure oil fields and preserve the "American way of life" is a sick project. I for one, am not willing to lose a single American for the cynical goal of sub-dollar-a-gallon fuel for my SUV.
If that is the measure of value for an American life then you can call me an America hater all day long and I will be proud to wear that badge.
I criticize our foreign policies because they result in the deaths of American soldiers and citizens at home and abroad. In no way do I criticize Americans. In the aftermath of the Trade Center attacks, it wasn't the government that responded with such ferocity and bravery. It was the average American.
The Beaurocrats were busy playing CYA and letting us know that none of this was their fault. In the meantime, Americans came up with over 60 million dollars in cash and even more in valuable resources in spite of the fact that they are taxed to the extreme in order to pay for the very policies that helped to incubate the attacks of 9/11.
America proved it's greatness in the response to the attacks. The government proved it's complete disregard for human liberty by passing laws which violate the spirit and letter of the Supreme law of the land. Even while the fires were still burning.
America is a great nation and is full of great people. Unfortunately its leaders have no respect for its people or its laws. Pointing this out is not showing hate for anything but the lawbreakers who do so.
Which has what to do with "Foreign" policy?
Aryan Nations? I thought those guys were banned.
If I may, the article you point to says no such thing - that the government "claimed" a third of the airline. Rather, the government offered a loan to a troubled airline, and as the loan was seen to be rather risky, they asked for the stock as collateral to the loan, and non-voting stock to boot. This is hardly the same as simply seizing private property.
If you don't like the man's strings, don't take the man's money - America West won't do anything involuntarily here. They can reject the loan and seek money in the capital markets, or they can just die. But to claim that this is somehow the same as nationalizing the airlines is just silly.
To: Texasforever
"...My point is that Roscoe is changing the subject.
Roscoe is trying to turn this into a shouting match about Israel,
instead of a thread about how those who question
any aspect of government are labeled "anti-American."
# 573 by exodus
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To: exodus
From the first post in the thread:
When we decry any actions taken by Israel, we are "anti-semites."
When Israel admitted that they had set a booby trap near an area
where children played and 5 Palestinian boys died when it went off,
you couldn't get near the topic without being ridiculed.
# 575 by Roscoe
************************
That was only used as an example of the kind of thinking
that labels questioners "anti-American," Roscoe.
Israel was wrong to endanger the children.
Saying so does not make me anti-Sematic.
Saying that I want Congress to fulfill it's duty
and declare war before the country
is saddled with war-time restrictions
does not make me anti-American, either.
You're embarrasing yourself.
Try not to take the flamebait. After all the idea is to get you to go supernova. Remember?
he he he......
But there is, Texasforever.
It's called America West Airlines.
Our government claimed a 33 percent cut of a private company.
Here's the thread, posted by carenot earlier today.
577 by exodus
************************
To: exodus
"If I may, the article you point to says no such thing -
that the government "claimed" a third of the airline.
Rather, the government offered a loan to a troubled airline,
and as the loan was seen to be rather risky,
they asked for the stock as collateral to the loan,
and non-voting stock to boot.
This is hardly the same as simply seizing private property.
If you don't like the man's strings,
don't take the man's money - America West won't do anything involuntarily here.
They can reject the loan and seek money in the capital markets, or they can just die.
But to claim that this is somehow the same as nationalizing the airlines is just silly. 586 by general_re
************************
The article didn't say "collateral," general_re.
The article says,
"(The government)...asked for a 33-percent stake in the airline
as a condition for approval to reflect the risk involved..."
A "stake" is not collateral,
the government will now own a 33 percent share of the airline.
It also said,
"...Aviation analysts said America West still faces difficulties
given the uncertain industry outlook,
and the harsher terms of the agreement
would likely keep the largest carriers from applying..."
The United States owns 33 percent of America West Airlines,
whether it survives or not.
OK now I'm confused.... ( wink ).
************************
To: exodus
We are insane to support Israel?
Even Willis Carto wasn't so blatant.
# 589 by Roscoe
************************
Roscoe, you are wrong to assume that I don't support Israel.
My pointing out that you are wrong doesn't make me anti-Roscoe.
Not always. You're embarassing yourself. We've been over this several times already in this thread alone. Do you have Alzheimers?
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