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America First: Why we need to examine our insane Foreign policy
self | 12/29/2001 | Demidog

Posted on 12/29/2001 9:27:49 AM PST by Demidog

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To: Buckeroo
I do? What a strange way to read my statement considering I said exactly the opposite.

I'll rephrase it, and summarize everything I've been saying on this thread: As long as the system isn't running the way I want it to be run, I will have to try to make the best of it as it is in the meantime.

221 posted on 12/29/2001 12:03:47 PM PST by monkeyshine
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Anyone have a problem with disenfranchising dual citizens? America First or get lost.
222 posted on 12/29/2001 12:04:34 PM PST by Eternal_Bear
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To: Eternal_Bear
Yes I have a problem with it because in many cases it is outside the control of the individual. A person born in America to a British father is a dual national by the law of both the USA and Britain. It doesn't matter if the person swears he hates Britain and never wants to go there and signs a document renouncing his British citizenship. By law, he is an American and a Brit. Why would you want to throw him out of the country?
223 posted on 12/29/2001 12:07:39 PM PST by monkeyshine
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To: saminfl
I don't know where you've been, but it is NOT speculation that the US put the Shah in power, but as much fact as the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor.
224 posted on 12/29/2001 12:08:12 PM PST by Eagle Eye
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To: Un-PC
Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate them.
225 posted on 12/29/2001 12:09:22 PM PST by Demidog
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To: Eagle Eye
Bait! baitbaitbaitbaitbaitbaitbaitbait

wanna go for "abuse"?

Go right ahead and push the abuse button. I could care less.

226 posted on 12/29/2001 12:10:12 PM PST by Dane
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To: Demidog
Someone posted this sometime ago. I don't remember any source mentioned maybe that prevented the 'attack the messenger' approach. But it is factual and could then be refuted with other facts.
--------

The list below presents specific incidents of U.S. policy.

It minimizes the grievances against the U.S. because it excludes

long-standing policies, such as U.S. backing for authoritarian

regimes (arming Saudi Arabia, training the secret police in Iran

under the Shah, providing arms and aid to Turkey as it attacked

Kurdish villages, etc.).

The list also excludes actions of Israel in which the U.S. is

indirectly implicated because Israel has been the leading or second

ranking recipient of U.S. aid for many years and has received U.S.

weapons and benefited from U.S. veto in the Security Council.

 

1949:

CIA backs military coup deposing elected government of Syria.

1953:

CIA helps overthrow the democratically elected Mossadeq government in

Iran (which had nationalized the British oil company) leading to a

quarter-century of dictatorial rule by the Shah, Mohammed Reza

Pahlevi.

1956:

U.S. cuts off promised funding for Aswan Dam in Egypt after Egypt

receives Eastern bloc arms.

1956:

Israel, Britain, and France invade Egypt.

U.S. does not support invasion, but the involvement of NATO allies

severely diminishes Washington's reputation in the region.

1958:

U.S. troops land in Lebanon to preserve "stability."

1960s (early):

U.S. unsuccessfully attempts assassination of Iraqi leader, Abdul Karim Qassim.

1963:

U.S. reported to give Iraqi Ba'ath party (soon to be headed by Saddam

Hussein) names of communists to murder, which they do with vigor.

1967:

U.S. blocks any effort in the Security Council to enforce SC

Resolution 244, calling for Israeli withdrawal from territories

occupied in the 1967 war.

1970:

Civil war between Jordan and PLO. Israel and U.S. prepare to

intervene on side of Jordan if Syria backs PLO.

1972:

U.S. blocks Sadats efforts to reach a peace agreement with Egypt.

1973:

U.S. military aid enables Israel to turn the tide in war with Syria and Egypt.

1973-75:

U.S. supports Kurdish rebels in Iraq.

When Iran reaches an agreement with Iraq in 1975 and seals the

border, Iraq slaughters Kurds and U.S. denies them refuge.

Kissinger secretly explains that "covert action should not be

confused with missionary work."

1978-79:

Iranians begin demonstrations against the Shah.

U.S. tells Shah it supports him "without reservation" and urges him

to act forcefully.

Until the last minute, U.S. tries to organize military coup to save

the Shah, but to no avail.

1979-88:

U.S. begins covert aid to Mujahideen in Afghanistan six months before

Soviet invasion.

Over the next decade U.S. provides more than $3 billion in arms and aid.

1980-88:

Iran-Iraq war.

When Iraq invades Iran, the U.S. opposes any Security Council action

to condemn the invasion.

U.S. removes Iraq from its list of nations supporting terrorism and

allows U.S. arms to be transferred to Iraq.

U.S. lets Israel provide arms to Iran and in 1985 U.S. provides arms

directly (though secretly) to Iran.

U.S. provides intelligence information to Iraq.

1984:

Iraq uses chemical weapons.

U.S. restores diplomatic relations with Iraq.

1987:

U.S. sends its navy into the Persian Gulf, taking Iraq's side.

1984:

An aggressive U.S. ship shoots down an Iranian civilian airliner, killing 290.

1981-1986:

U.S. holds military maneuvers off the coast of Libya with the clear

purpose of provoking Qaddafi.

1981:

A Libyan plane fires a missile and two Libyan planes were

subsequently shot down.

1986:

Libya fires missiles that land far from any target and U.S. attacks

Libyan patrol boats, killing 72, and shore installations.

When a bomb goes off in a Berlin nightclub, killing two, the U.S.

charges that Qaddafi was behind it (possibly true) and conducts major

bombing raids in Libya, killing dozens of civilians, including

Qaddafi's adopted daughter. (Give me a break!)

1982:

U.S. gives "green light" to Israeli invasion of Lebanon, where more

than 10,000 civilians were killed.

U.S. chooses not to invoke its laws prohibiting Israeli use of U.S.

weapons except in self-defense.

1983:

U.S. troops sent to Lebanon as part of a multinational peacekeeping

force; intervene on one side of a civil war.

Withdraw after suicide bombing of Marine barracks.

1984:

U.S.-backed rebels in Afghanistan fire on civilian airliner.

1988:

Saddam Hussein kills many thousands of his own Kurdish population and

uses chemical weapons against them.

The U.S. increases its economic ties to Iraq.

1990-91:

U.S. rejects diplomatic settlement of the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait

(Rebuffing any attempt to link the two regional occupations, of

Kuwait and Palestine).

U.S. leads international coalition in war against Iraq.

Civilian infrastructure targeted.

To promote "stability" U.S. refuses to aid uprisings by Shi'ites in

the south and Kurds in the north, denying the rebels access to

captured Iraqi weapons and refusing to prohibit Iraqi helicopter

flights.

1991:

Devastating economic sanctions are imposed on Iraq.

U.S. and Britain block all attempts to lift them.

Hundreds of thousands die.

Though Security Council stated sanctions were to be lifted once

Hussein's programs to develop weapons of mass destruction were ended,

Washington makes it known that the sanctions would remain as long as

Saddam remains in power.

Sanctions strengthen Saddam's position.

1993:

U.S. launches missile attack on Iraq, claiming self defense against

an alleged assassination attempt on former president Bush two months

earlier.

1998:

U.S. and U.K. bomb Iraq over weapons inspections, even though

Security Council is just then meeting to discuss the matter.

1998:

U.S. destroys factory producing half of Sudan's pharmaceutical

supply, claiming retaliation for attacks on U.S. embassies in

Tanzania and Kenya and that factory was involved in chemical warfare.

U.S. later acknowledges there is no evidence for the chemical warfare charge. If this all checks out, we sure have not been a bystander in this area.

227 posted on 12/29/2001 12:10:43 PM PST by ex-snook
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To: ex-snook
Regarding your 1982 charge about Lebanon. It *WAS* in self defense.
228 posted on 12/29/2001 12:15:14 PM PST by College Repub
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To: Demidog
Bump! First rate, DD.
229 posted on 12/29/2001 12:16:21 PM PST by AKbear
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To: ex-snook
One is left out:

1996: Sudan offers to extradite Usama bin Laden to the U.S. The U.S. refuses and instead Afghanistan welcomes Usama into their country. U.S. later blames Sudan of "harboring terrorists" and in 1998 bombs an aspirin factory.

230 posted on 12/29/2001 12:17:29 PM PST by Demidog
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To: anniegetyourgun
Here's my solution, annie:

Do not vote. Ever. It is a specious cloak of legitimacy for an inherently immoral enterprise. How is it legitimate for 50,000,001 voters to tell 149,999,999 people how to live? Did you really believe that just because Bill Clinton was elected Madeline Albright spoke for you when she visited North Korea? I'm a WASP male living in Atlanta in John Lewis's congressional district with earnings in the 90th percentile. Do you really think my vote will ever count as opposed to the majority of voters who are net tax consumers?

When the only people left voting are government dependents, there will be so few participants in the democratic process that the next election will be for the Presidency of Washington D.C. The rest of us will be doing what we've always done: working, loving, celebrating, worshipping. The welfare/warfare state and its constant, manufactured "crises," oppressive taxation and inherent corruption will be a distant nightmare. Will life be easy? Of course not! We live in a world of scarce resources, not the Garden of Eden! Will it be better than under government? Absolutely! I don't expect to see it, but I believe my great-great-grandchildren will. Social democracies are, in a relative sense, a recent invention. They are inherently self-contradictory and will eventually collapse from their own internal flaws.

/rant>

231 posted on 12/29/2001 12:19:29 PM PST by SteamshipTime
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To: ex-snook
You missed one:
1941 - 1945 --- U.S. alliance with Soviet Union
232 posted on 12/29/2001 12:20:50 PM PST by Chi-townChief
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To: Justin Raimondo
FYI
233 posted on 12/29/2001 12:22:22 PM PST by Demidog
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To: al_possum39
I never said it was unAmerican to voice an opinion. I simply indicated that the outcomes of a system like ours may not always be to our liking. It's not even unAmerican to not vote, whine, and not attempt to influence the outcome - for even that is allowed in this country. And, alas, so many prefer to take that route.

What will you be doing about those things you think are wrong?

234 posted on 12/29/2001 12:22:24 PM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: monkeyshine
Isolationism gets us nowhere

It depends where you want to get to.

I believe the cracks are showing in the global intervention foundation. I also believe that continuing this down this path of global interventionism will end in chaos for the United States, as we have everything to lose. Much of this global interventionism is based on nothing but greed and power. In my honest opinion, this will lead to nothing but trouble for the United States.

We could be very independent and still trade with friendly nations, and still have the worlds biggest and meanist military for *defense purposes*.

I feel its time for the United States to become more independent. We were warned, many years ago. We should take notice.

235 posted on 12/29/2001 12:24:15 PM PST by Joe Hadenuf
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To: Demidog
The sooner we drop the bravado of being THE LAST REMAINING SUPERPOWER, the better. We're vulnerable to suffering the consequences of all the ills and problems of the world, including and especially the consequences our own government's foreign policies. The sooner the American public gets clear on that, the better, and it will inform our views on who should be in office to serve and make decisions in our interest.
236 posted on 12/29/2001 12:25:53 PM PST by LoisHunt
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To: LoisHunt
The sooner we drop the bravado of being THE LAST REMAINING SUPERPOWER, the better.

Amen to that.

237 posted on 12/29/2001 12:27:25 PM PST by Demidog
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To: monkeyshine
If we can abolish the income tax, end the war on drugs, and privatize social security, I would be more willing to scrutinize foreign aid and domestic subsidies. But picking on the child (foreign aid) of the father (the income tax) is a silly way to go about it.

--------------------------------

On the contrary, claiming that we have to change all the worse political abuses of a hundred years in one swell foop, or not at all, is the silly way to argue the point.

238 posted on 12/29/2001 12:27:39 PM PST by tpaine
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To: SteamshipTime
I think I'll continue to vote and work towards the betterment. Of course, I also realize that government is hardly our salvation. Thankfully there is One much greater than all of our messes who handles that all-important angle.
239 posted on 12/29/2001 12:28:24 PM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: monkeyshine
Why do you agree with Bush's PRC permanent trade sanction while not-agreeing relieving Cuba of the same? You are inconsistent. You think communists that are far away are nice communists.

I say communism is rapant in america. You close your eyes.

240 posted on 12/29/2001 12:30:01 PM PST by Buckeroo
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