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I Pledge allegiance to the Confederate Flag
Dixienews.com ^ | December 24, 2001 | Lake E. High, Jr.

Posted on 12/24/2001 4:25:26 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa

I Pledge allegiance to the Confederate Flag, and to the Southern People and the Culture for which it stands

by Lake E. High, Jr.

The Confederate flag is again under attack, as it has always been, and as it always will be. It is under attack because of what it symbolizes. The problem is that to many Southerners have forgotten just what it does symbolize.

The Confederate Nation of 1860 - 1865 was the intellectual, as well as the spiritual, continuation of the United States of America as founded, planned, and formed by Southerners. It was the stated, and often repeated, position of almost all Southerners in the 1860’s that they, and the South, were the heirs of the original political theory embodied in the U. S. Constitution of 1789. In 1860 their attempted to separate from the rest of the states and form their own nation since that was the only way the South could preserve the philosophy and the virtues that had made the United States the magnificent nation it had become.

In both of these contentions, that is, the South was the true repository of the original political theory that made the United States great, and the South was the true home of the people who took the necessary actions to found, make, and preserve the original United States, Southerners have been proven by the passage of time to be correct.

The Southern colonies of Virginia, North and South Carolina and Maryland were where the majority of the original American population resided until the 1700’s despite the fact Massachusetts was settled only 13 years after Virginia and New York was settled 18 years before South Carolina. As the population of the colonies grew, the New England States and the middle Atlantic states, gained population so that by the time of the American Revolutionary War the two general areas of the north and the South were generally equal in size with a small population advantage being shown by Virginia. This slight difference in population by a southern state was to have a profound effect on the development of the United States.

First of all, the New England states managed to start a war with England, which they verbalized as "taxation without representation." In truth the problem from their point of view was the taxes on their trade. Having started the war they then promptly managed to lose it. The British, after conquering the entire north from Maine (then part of Massachusetts) to Boston, to Providence, to New York, to the new nation’s capital, Philadelphia, shifted their military forces to move against the Southern colonies. They secured their foothold in the South by capturing Savannah and Charleston and then proceeded to move inland to subdue the Southern population. They planed to catch the Virginia forces under General Washington in a coordinated attack moving down from the north, which they held, and up from the South that they thought they would also conquer.

The British army that had mastered the north found they could not defeat the Southern people. Once in the backwoods of the South they found themselves to be the beaten Army. The British defeats at Kings Mountain and Cowpens were absolute. Their Pyrrhic victories at Camden and Guilford Courthouse were tantamount to defeat. In both North Carolina and South Carolina they were so weakened they had to retreat from the area of their few "victories" within days. Their defeats at those well-known sites among others, along with their defeat at Yorktown in Virginia, led directly to their surrender.

Having secured the political freedom from England for all the colonists, Southerners then mistakenly sat back and took a smaller role in forming the new American government that operated under an "Articles of Confederation." That first attempt at forming a government fell to the firebrands of New England who has started the war and who still asserted their moral position of leadership despite their poor showing on the field of battle. These Articles of Confederation, the product of the Yankee political mind, gave too much economic self determination to the separate colonies (as the Northern colonies had demanded in an attempt to protect their shipping, trade and manufacturing) and too little power of enforcement to a central government.

After a period of six difficult years, when the Articles of Confederation failed as a form of government, another convention was called and a new form of government was drawn up. This time the convention was under the leadership of Southerners and they brought forth the document we all refer to as the U.S. Constitution. Even northern historians do not try to pretend the Constitution and the ideas embodied therein are anything other than a product of the Southern political mind. (Yankee historians cannot deny it, but they do choose to ignore it so their students grow up ignorant of the fact that the Constitution is Southern.) So, as it turns out, when the new nation found itself in political trouble it was the South which, once again, came to the rescue just as it had when the nation found itself previously in military trouble.

With the slight population advantage it enjoyed over other states, Virginia was able to give to the new nation politicians who are nothing short of demigods. Their names are revered in all areas of the civilized world wherever political theorists converge. Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Randolph, Henry, Taylor and Monroe are just a few, there are many more. These men along with the leading political minds of South Carolina, Rutledge, Heyward, and, most importantly, Pinckney, saw their new nation through its birth and establishment.

The military leadership, as well as the political leadership, of the South saw the nation through its expansion. Under Southern leadership the British were defeated a second time in 1814. Under Southerners, most obviously John Tyler and Andrew Jackson, Florida was added as a state. The defeat of Mexico in 1846, under the Southern leadership of James Polk and numerous Southern military officers, established of the United States as a force to be feared. That was an astonishing accomplishment for so small and so young a nation

Thomas Jefferson, who added the Louisiana Purchase, barely escaped impeachment for his efforts. The north argued continuously against the war with Mexico that added the area from Texas to California just as they had argued against the Louisiana Purchase. One Congressman from Illinois, Abraham Lincoln, was particularly vehement against Texas being made a state. Northerners, having seen Mexico defeated and the United States enlarged all the way to the Pacific Ocean, then objected to the methods and motives of the acquisition of the Washington and Oregon territories in the northwest. Polk, who had added that vast area from Louisiana to California to Colorado to the pacific northwest, served only one term as President due to the constant attacks he sufferer in the Northern press. Left to the people of the north, the French would still control from Minnesota to Louisiana and Mexico would control from Texas to the Pacific while Canada would still include Washington, Oregon Idaho and Montana.

Every square inch of soil that now comprises the continental United States was added under a Southern president, and they did it over the strenuous political objections of the north. The provincial and mercenary Yankee people fought every effort to expand the United States. The expansion of the United States became a regional political disagreement that spread ill feeling north and South. Its accomplishment by Southerners was no small feat. It was accomplished under Southern military leadership and with much Southern blood. (Which is why Tennessee is called "The Volunteer State" and the names of Southerners are almost exclusively the only ones found on memorial tablets and monuments from Texas to California.). The expansion of the original colonies into the continental power it became was completely the results of the Southern mind and Southern leadership.

Having secured the freedom of the United States from England and then having formed and led the successful government into a new political age under a written constitution that is still the envy of the whole world, the South gave the entire military and political leadership that formed the United States into the boundaries it now enjoys. But these magnificent accomplishments were soon to be overshadowed by population shifts and the ensuing results that brings in a representative government. By the early 1820s the north had finally secured just enough additional population that it had achieved enough political clout to start protecting its first love, its money. The unfair and punitive tariffs that were passed in 1828 led to the South’s first half-hearted attempt to form its own separate government with the Nullification movement of 1832. The threat of war that South Carolina held out in 1832 then caused a negotiated modification of those laws to where the South could live with them. For the time being, the political question was settled by compromise.

While those changes pacified the political leaders of the South for the time being, some statesmen could see, even then, that if the North ever became totally dominant politically, the South would be destroyed, not just economically, but philosophically and spiritually as well. Those statesmen, with Calhoun in the lead, then started planting the intellectual seeds that led to the South’s second attempt at political freedom in 1860.

Unfortunately, in the 1840’s Yankee abolitionist introduced the new poison of the "voluntary end" of slavery as a political issue. There were attempts by many Southerners to defuse this situation by offering an economic solution. That is, Southerners offered to end slavery in the South just as England had ended it in the West Indies, by having the slave-holders paid for their losses when the slaves were freed. The abolitionist Yankees would have none of that. Their position was simple, the South could give up it slaves for free and each farmer could absorb the loss personally. There was to be no payment. To the Yankee abolitionists it was either their way or war.

The fact that the abolitionist movement became a dominant presence in the northern part of the United States from the 1840’s on is primarily because a liberal can politicize any subject and enrage any body of people regardless of the level of preexisting good will. (As current liberals have turned the simple good sense argument that one should not litter one’s own environment into the political upheaval of "the ecology movement." The effectiveness of liberal methods can currently be seen in the simple instance that most people believe such nonsense as the chemical cause of "ozone depletion" and "the greenhouse effect" despite any evidence of either. Liberals are absolutely capable, by their strident, activist natures of raising any question to harmful emotional heights.)

Unfortunately, the loss of the War for Southern Independence in 1865 caused the very thing that Southern statesmen had foreseen in the 1830’s; that is, the north became dominant and the cultural, spiritual, and economic base of the South was decimated. The loss of the war was most severely felt in the South, of course, but it has also had political repercussions in the north as well.

Without the South in a position of dominance, the leadership of the United States has gone from Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, Tyler and Polk to the inept, or leftist, Grant, Harding, Arthur, Harrison and Roosevelt, among others. Plus, the ascendancy of the leftist north to national prominence has also caused the rise of leaders in the South who had to be acceptable to the north. Such spectacularly immoral or totally incompetent Southern politicians as Lyndon Johnson, Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton are examples of the quality of the men that the South must now produce to garner northern votes. When these modern day jackals are contrasted with the demigods the South produced when unfettered by the northern voter, that in itself should be enough to make all people reject northern philosophy and northern politics and embrace all things Southern.

As the forces of the left have gained ascendancy in the United States, the pressure intensifies to completely obliterate anything that remains between them and complete leftist victory. That means that the traditional enemy of leftists, the South, must be erased in its every form. That is why leftists always demand that even symbols of the South be eradicated.

We, therefore, now have a coalition of people who want the Southern flag taken down and hidden from public view. This coalition is composed of three main groups. First of all are African-Americans, whose emotional position is totally unmitigated by any knowledge of history. Secondly, there are Yankees who have moved to the South and who, despite their remarkable political failures in their own states, have learned nothing and continue to vote leftist here too. Or either these northern imports have been transferred here to run the newspapers that are owned by the people who live outside the South. And, thirdly, there are leftist Southerners, or Southerners of "politically correct" leaning, who have apparently learned their history from the television and movies and who feel the South is a bad place because it is not egalitarian enough.

But the demands of this coalition of political thinkers need to be put in proper perspective. Before anyone starts to tell someone else how to act and how to think, it is incumbent on him to demonstrate the success of his own ideas and actions. So far the introduction and enforcement of leftist ideas in our world has led to nothing but sorrow and degeneration. The force necessary to make people live under a leftist government has been the direct cause of the murder of over one hundred million people in this century alone. Leftist political theory has enslaved and impoverished billions of people worldwide. Its introduction has weakened even such great nations as England and France and reduced them to the status of third rate nations. Socialism in Scandinavia has reduced it to an economic level even less than that of England. In the United States leftist ideas have turned our country into the increasingly sick society it has become.

So until this coalition of leftist can point to a single successful instance of where their leftist philosophy has improved a country, or a people, rather than to the spectacular political failures the left has precipitated in any place into which its poisonous philosophy has been introduced, they have no right to demand anything of anybody. Leftist, the most spectacular political failures in all of history, have no standing to demand that Southerners accept anything that flows from their false philosophy. And of all people, leftist have the least demand on Southerners, the people who formed, guided, expanded and gave them a great country.

The Confederate flag is a symbol. It stands for the people who had the spirit, the courage, and the intelligence to give the world its greatest governmental entity. As long as the Confederate flag flies there is hope that the terrible scourge leftists have placed on the world will pass. It represents the culture that produced the most wished for, the most just, and the finest political system on earth. And as long as the Confederate flies there is hope that the greatness that was once ours may someday be reestablished.


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To: WhiskeyPapa
How can anyone so convinced of the antebellum order (now there's cause enough for dismissal...) refer to its "continuation" as theUnited States?
61 posted on 12/24/2001 6:41:12 AM PST by nicollo
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To: Rodney King
I agree with you, and am sure that I am more in tune with you on this issue than with WhiskeyPapa. However, this is really a terrible essay that is full of false assertions, and it does nothing for the southern cause.

Thank you, and Merry Christmas to you, sir. Most of the time I don't bother reading the essays posted here after skimming the first few paragraphs and getting the gist of it. I usually scroll down to the replies and look and individuals' responses and take it from there, so my replies don't necessarily mean I agree/disagree with the essay.

One funny thing I noticed is the spelling/grammar. It shows the true weakness of SpellCheck in the sense that the words are spelled correctly but are not the correct usage. That tends to play into the stereotype of the education system in the South.

62 posted on 12/24/2001 6:42:23 AM PST by Leesylvanian
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To: Leesylvanian
Dear WhiskeyPapa: First of all, Merry Christmas, and please don't take this as a personal attack by a neo-Confederate or whatever names you apply to those who argue on the side of the legality of secession. But the quotes you posted simply don't argue against secession. No Virginian, or any state delegate for that matter, would have voted to put his state into a union from which there is no legal recourse if its rights or interests were threatened.

We know that Washington is strongly on the record favoring a strong national union. Likewise is Madison. Can you name another Virginian--a delegate at the Constitutional Convention would be nice--who opined in the record as you suggest?

Walt

63 posted on 12/24/2001 6:45:28 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
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To: Leesylvanian
The reason Lee and Jefferson Davis and others were not tried for treason is the U.S. government knew it didn't have a case.

Davis and the rest were never brought to trial because the Fourteenth Amendment was adopted and Chief Justice Chase viewed it as a violation of their Constitutional rights against being punished twice for the same crime. Think about it for a moment. Are you so naive as to believe that had the Northern government proceeded with a trial of Davis and the rest that they would have allowed for the possibility of an acquittal? You think packing a jury is a recent development?

Lee, Davis, and all other graduates of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, were taught in their Constitutional Law courses that secession was a legal right of the states.

Let me quote from Rawle's book, "A View of the Constitution of the United States of America. This is from Chaper 32, Of the Permenance of the Union:

"The secession of a state from the Union depends on the will of the people of such state. The people alone as we have already seen, bold the power to alter their constitution. The Constitution of the United States is to a certain extent, incorporated into the constitutions or the several states by the act of the people. The state legislatures have only to perform certain organical operations in respect to it. To withdraw from the Union comes not within the general scope of their delegated authority. There must be an express provision to that effect inserted in the state constitutions. This is not at present the case with any of them, and it would perhaps be impolitic to confide it to them. A matter so momentous, ought not to be entrusted to those who would have it in their power to exercise it lightly and precipitately upon sudden dissatisfaction, or causeless jealousy, perhaps against the interests and the wishes of a majority of their constituents."

Given that the provision that Rawle spoke of was still not a part of any of the state constitutions of the seceeding states and that none of the original seven confederate states put the matter of secession to a popular referendum, then how can you hold Rawle's book as justification for their actions? That would be like breaking all ten commandments and then using the Bible to justify your actions, wouldn't it?

Why weren't the legislators of the New England states accused of treason after the Hartford Convention?

Because the Hartford Convention never voted secession and none of the states entered into rebellion, that's why.

64 posted on 12/24/2001 6:55:07 AM PST by Non-Sequitur
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To: Leesylvanian
The reason Lee and Jefferson Davis and others were not tried for treason is the U.S. government knew it didn't have a case.

Well, that's a dodge, isn't it?

Lee definitely levied war on the United States. That is treason.

From a newsgroup; not written by me. Consider:

"The issue about trying Jefferson Davis, Alexander Stephens and other political leaders of the Confederacy for treason was a complex one.

There were two reasons for not doing trying them: first was the feeling that a trial, if successful, would have created a martyr. In 1865, Jefferson Davis' trial would probably been applauded by most Confederates! But the exaggerated rumors of his mistreatment by Nelson Miles while Davis was held at Fortress Monroe changed the image of Davis among white Southerners from a hated incompetent to a martyr to the Lost Cause.

Carl Schurz commented on this in a speech in the Senate:

"There is not a single example of such magnanimity in the history of the world," declared Carl, "and it may be truly said that in acting as it did, this Republic was a century ahead of its time."

Early Twentieth Century American historian James Ford Rhodes wrote, "With a just feeling of pride may we honour the officials and citizens, the Republicans and the Democrats, who contributed to this grand result. For assuredly it was a sublime thing that, despite the contentious partisanship of the time, men bitterly opposed on almost every other question, could agree that the highest wisdom demanded that Davis be released from prison and that he be not punished or even tried; that those in control recognized what had hitherto been so little appreciated 'that the grass soon grows over blood shed upon the battle field, but never over blood shed upon the scaffold.'"

That said, there was another and, I suspect, equally potent issue. It had nothing to do with the number of Republicans on the Supreme Court or with long term thinking on the impact of executing ex-Confederates for treason. Instead it had to do with the United States Constitution's very restrictive clause on what constitutes treason and, even more important, where and how charges of treason must be tried: Article III, Section 2 provides "The Trial of all Crimes, except in Cases of Impeachment, shall be by Jury; and such Trial shall be held in the State where the said Crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any State, the Trial shall be at such Place or Places as the Congress may by Law have directed," and Section 3 states "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court. The Congress shall have Power to declare the Punishment of Treason." The Constitutional Convention had deliberately made it difficult to convict someone of treason, because of fears of abuse. In addition, Chief Justice John Marshall, sitting as a district court judge in Richmond (much like his successor, Taney, had done in ex parte Merryman) in the Aaron Burr trial had set very high standards, in Marshall's case to embarrass his political enemy, Thomas Jefferson.

There have only been a handful of treason trials in American history: several men involved in the Whiskey Rebellion in the 1790s were convicted but later pardoned. In ex parte Bollman, 8 US (4 Cr) 75 (1807), one of the Burr conspirators was freed because the indictment was in the District of Columbia and Bollman had not been there. Chief Justice Marshall ruled that the indictment and trial would have to be held where the alleged treason had actually occurred, not, to carry the argument to the Civil War, in Pennsylvania, because, even though the Army of Northern Virginia paid a visit, President Davis was never there. The Burr Trial, United States v. Burr, 8 US (4 Cr.) 469, Appx. (1807) ruled that Burr could not be convicted unless two witnesses testified to Burr's actual involvement. Since that was a secret conspiracy, there was no one to testify against Burr.

After 1807 it was World War II before there was another Treason Trial! Of the three, only two were upheld. In the United States treason is an extremely difficult crime to prosecute. Facing this issue, the Johnson Administration wanted the best legal counsel possible if it was to try any of the Confederate leadership. They appointed a sort of Special Prosecutor, a man most of us know for a very different reason: Richard Henry Dana, Jr. Many of us read, back in junior high, his classic sea story, Two Years Before the Mast. What we forget is that Dana wrote the book, not as an adventure story for boys, but as an expose on the conditions faced by the common seamen of the 1840s. After completing law school, Dana became a leading attorney defending the less fortunate, whether they were seamen abused by their captains or employers, or accused escaped slaves.

The first question in any post-war treason trial was, had Davis waged war against the United States? Obviously. Second, where had he waged war? Probably in Virginia. Perhaps in Montgomery.

Well, then, he would have to be tried in Virginia, in the United States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia. This was the court which, sitting in Richmond, had indicted not only Davis, but also a number of prominent Confederates, including Robert E. Lee.

Now the rub: according to Article II, Section 2, Davis, and anyone else, would have to be tried in Virginia, before a jury of Virginians! Remember that no blacks would qualify for a jury, indeed, if would have been hard to empanel a jury, which did not contain either ex-Confederates or Confederate sympathizers. And Dana was very concerned about the ability of the Government to convince twelve Virginians that Davis had committed a crime.

Let Dana, in a letter to Attorney General W.M. Evarts on August 24, 1868, expressed his opinion why there should be no attempt to try Davis (and by extension, any other Confederate) for their activities during the War. The letter is a little long but I think it important to allow you to read all of it:

SIR,
While preparing with yourself, before you assumed your present post, to perform the honorable duty the President had assigned to us, of conducting the trial of Jefferson Davis, you know how much my mind was moved, from the first, by doubts of the expediency of trying him at all. The reasons which prevented my presenting those doubts no longer exist, and they have so ripened into conviction that I feel it my duty to lay them before you in form, as you now hold a post of official responsibly for the proceeding.

After the most serious reflection, I cannot see any good reason why the Government should make a question whether the late civil war was treason, and whether Jefferson Davis took any part in it, and submit those questions to the decision of a petit jury of the vicinage of Richmond at nisi prius.

As the Constitution in terms settles the fact that our republic is a state against which treason may be committed, the only constitutional question attending the late war was whether a levying of war against the United States which would otherwise be treason, is relieved of that character by the fact that it took the form of secession from the Union by state authority. In other words the legal issue was, whether secession by a State is a right, making an act legal and obligatory upon the nation which would otherwise have been treason.

This issue I suppose to have been settled by the action of every department of the Government, by the action of the people itself, and by those events which are definitive in the affairs of men.

The Supreme Court In the Prize Causes held, by happily a unanimous opinion, that acts of the States, whether secession ordinances, or in whatever form cast, could not be brought into the cases, as justifications for the war, and had no legal effect on the character of the war, or on the political status of territory or persons or property, and that the line of enemy's territory was a question of fact, depending upon the line of bayonets of an actual war. The rule in the Prize Causes has been steadily followed in the Supreme Court since, and in the Circuit Courts, without an intimation of a doubt. That the law making and executive departments have treated this secession and war as treason, is matter of history, as well as is the action of the people in the highest sanction of war.

It cannot be doubted that the Circuit Court at the trial will instruct the jury, in conformity with these decisions, that the late attempt to establish and sustain by war an independent empire within the United States was treason. The only question of fact submitted to the Jury will be whether Jefferson Davis took any part in the war. As it is one of the great facts of history that he was its head, civil and military, why should we desire to make a question of it and refer its decision to a jury, with power to find in the negative or affirmative, or to disagree? It is not an appropriate question for the decision of a jury; certainly it is not a fact which a Government should, without great cause, give a jury a chance to ignore.

We know that these indictments are to be tried in what was for five years enemy's territory, which is not yet restored to the exercise of all its political functions, and where the fires are not extinct. We know that it only requires one dissentient juror to defeat the Government and give Jefferson Davis and his favorers a triumph. Now, is not such a result one which we must include in our calculation of possibilities? Whatever modes may be legally adopted to draw a jury, or to purge it, and whatever the influence of the court or of counsel, we know that a favorer of treason may get upon the jury. But that is not necessary. A fear of personal violence or social ostracism may be enough to induce one man to withhold his assent from the verdict, especially as be need not come forward personally, nor give a reason, even in the jury-room.

This possible result would be most humiliating to the Government and people of this country, and none the less so from the fact that it would be absurd. The Government would be stopped in its judicial course because it could neither assume nor judicially determine that Jefferson Davis took part in the late civil war. Such a result would also bring into doubt the adequacy of our penal system to deal with such cases as this.

If it were important to secure a verdict as a means of punishing the defendant, the question would present itself differently. But it would be beneath the dignity of the Government and of the issue, to inflict upon him a minor punishment; and, as to a sentence of death, I am sure that, after this lapse of time and after all that has occurred in the interval, the people of the United States would not desire to see it enforced.

In fine, after the fullest consideration, it seems to me that, by pursuing the trial, the Government can get only a re-affirmation by a Circuit Court at nisi prius of a rule of public law settled for this country in every way in which such a matter can be settled, only giving to a jury drawn from the region of the rebellion a chance to disregard the law when announced. It gives that jury a like opportunity to ignore the fact that Jefferson Davis t ook any part in the late civil war. And one man upon the jury can secure these results. The risks of such absurd and discreditable issues of a great state trial are assumed for the sake of a verdict which, if obtained, will settle nothing in law or national practice not now settled, and nothing in fact not now history, while no judgment rendered thereon do we think will be ever executed.

Besides these reasons, and perhaps because of them, I think that the public interest in the trial has ceased among the most earnest and loyal citizens. If your views and those of the President should be in favor of proceeding with the trial, I am confident that I can do my duty as counsel, to the utmost of my ability and with all zeal. For my doubts are not what the verdict ought to be. On the contrary, I should feel all the more strongly, if the trial is begun, the importance of a victory to the Government, and the necessity of putting forth all powers and using all lawful means to secure it. Still, I feel it my duty to say that if the President should judge otherwise, my position in the cause is at his disposal."

President Johnson noted on the letter, "This opinion must be filed with care, A.J."

On the following Christmas, President Johnson issued an amnesty proclamation which included Davis, and, as a result, in the following February an order of nolle prosequi was entered, and Davis and his bondsmen were released.

[end]

There is no doubt whatever that Daviw and the rest were traitors to the United States. What is more, they were traitors to the future.

Walt

66 posted on 12/24/2001 6:56:59 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
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To: Leesylvanian
The Brits moved south because they had most of the North wrapped up.

No, they moved south in order to split the colonies. That is the same reason they went up the Hudson Valley; to split New England from the other rebellious colonies. If the Brits had the northern colonies "wrapped up", they would have been as secure as Canada.

Walt

67 posted on 12/24/2001 7:00:02 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
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The battle of Saratoga decided at Freeman's Farm decided the War of Independence by bringing in French, Dutch and Spanish intervention was won by nearly all Massachusetts men. When the Brits invaded South Carolina, their legislature declared istself to be "neutral" in the conflict. Nathanel Greene said of his famous Southern campaign that the American Army were composed of British turncoats and the British Army were composed of Southern tories. That is why the Brits pursued a southern strategy because they knew they had lot of support in the South.
68 posted on 12/24/2001 7:03:07 AM PST by Eternal_Bear
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Why do you feel they would have to be tried in Virginia? The trial could easily have been held in Pennsylvania, for example, which Lee invaded in 1863, or Maryland, which was invaded in 1862. Or in Washington, D.C., which is the seat of the Federal government. The crime of treason has to be committed against the government, so the trial could have been held in its seat. The rest of your cut-and-paste argument, as is par, is superflous.
69 posted on 12/24/2001 7:07:47 AM PST by Leesylvanian
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Comment #70 Removed by Moderator

Comment #71 Removed by Moderator

To: Eternal_Bear
The Brits had no more support in the South than in the North. They turned to the South in order to split the colonies and bring war to the mostly unaffected region after the North had been pretty well wrapped up. Keep in mind when discussing the South Carolina legislature that it was perhaps the most royalist of legislatures at the time of the revolution and did not reflect the views of the populace as a whole.
72 posted on 12/24/2001 7:13:26 AM PST by Leesylvanian
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To: Thorn11cav
I liked your reply. As a son of the south, having grown up in a career military household and then having spent a number of years on active duty myself, always being stationed in the south when not overseas, I can appreciate what the author of this article had to say. I think, watching the visceral, out of hand attacks on the article by so many I may be starting to finally learn a working definition of the word neo-con.

Thanks for all the great reads in your posts over the last few years. Merry Christmas.

73 posted on 12/24/2001 7:15:25 AM PST by ImpBill
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To: WhiskeyPapa
The Brits would not have turned to the South if they didn't feel confident in their control of the North. No army would turn its back on unfinished business to open up a second front, unless of course it has an egomaniacal Austrian corporal running the show!
74 posted on 12/24/2001 7:15:31 AM PST by Leesylvanian
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To: Leesylvanian
Why do you feel they would have to be tried in Virginia? The trial could easily have been held in Pennsylvania, for example, which Lee invaded in 1863, or Maryland, which was invaded in 1862.

Dana's letter specifically refers to Davis.

The fact that yes, clearly Lee DID wage war against the United States (along with every single one of his soldiers) in Pennsylvania only speaks to the point that the northerners were interested in magnaminity, not revenge.

Yes, every soldier who bore arms in the ANV on its 1863 raid into that state could have been hauled in chains bofore a jury of Pennsylvania men. And they might well all have been convicted of treason and hanged.

But as the point of the exercise was to reunite the country and go forward together, that would have been the worst possible thing.

But to say that the US government had no -case- in the matter of treason is simply wrong.

Perhaps the northerners were remembering Lincoln's words to Grant in the spring of 1865: "Let 'em up easy."

Walt

75 posted on 12/24/2001 7:16:30 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
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To: Leesylvanian
The Brits would not have turned to the South if they didn't feel confident in their control of the North.

Documentation please.

Walt

76 posted on 12/24/2001 7:17:21 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
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To: WhiskeyPapa
Dear Sir: I'm afraid you are a little too narrowly focused when you cut-and-paste your arguments. Find one statement in the Federalist papers, the anti-Federalist papers, the ratification documents, the United States Constitution, or in Madison's diaries of the convention, that suggests that the states were voluntarily entering in to a union from which there is no legal recourse when their interests and rights are being violated.
77 posted on 12/24/2001 7:19:33 AM PST by Leesylvanian
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Comment #78 Removed by Moderator

To: Surfin
I'm wondering why, on the eve of Christmas, WhiskeyPapa would post this article. I've lurked enough of these threads to see how tense they can become. I would hope people could come together for at least a few days a year. I would hope people, brothers both north and south, could put this type of resentment on hold, at least for a few days a year. Merry Christmas.

Again, I am sorry if I gave offense. I happened across this "Pledge" thing, so I decided to post it.

Merry Christmas.

Walt

79 posted on 12/24/2001 7:22:45 AM PST by WhiskeyPapa
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To: Leesylvanian
Southerners simply contributed more to the founding of the country when you look at individual contributions.

Nonsense. Take any three Southerners you want, and that includes IMHO the greatest American ever, George Washington, and they don't equal the contribution made to independence and our ultimate success as a nation made by John Adams.

Adams was the quiet force behind many of the achievements made by Washington, Jefferson and the other Virginians. He gave the Virginians all the opportunities they had for success because he understood that the nation could not succeed if Virginia were not just as involved in the struggle as New England. He willingly let others take the glory as long as the outcome fit his vision.

IMHO, Washington was the ‘Indispensable Man’ based on his character, courage and charisma. But John Adams was the giant behind the scenes who made it all happen. Adams made Washington CiC when New Englanders were already fighting the British and had better claims of the leadership of the military. Adams best friend, John Hancock who had already suffered much in the cause of independence sought command. Adams instead worked behind the scenes to assure Washington was selected to bring about sectional unity. The simple fact that Adams understood was that New Englanders would fight for freedom under any good leader. Virginians, being snobbish would only follow another Virginian. He understood that hidebound southern sectionalism and used it to his advantage. Jefferson gets credit for the Declaration of Independence, but it was Adams who wrote the first draft months before and kept it in his pocket wisely choosing not to openly push for a formal declaration until the ‘time was right.’ In June of 1776, with the largest naval armada ever assembled until that date approaching New York harbor, Adams made his move and offered his independence resolution to Congress. His arguments, all well laid out and designed to counter the opposition he knew he would receive, especially from the Southern contingents, carried the Congress. Adams selected the young Jefferson to write the final version, which minus Adams damnation of the King for fostering the slave trade, was for all intents and purposes the same document as Adam’s first draft but with more eloquent wording. Adams created the US Navy. He arranged the first European loans for America from the Dutch republic. He risked his life several times crossing the Atlantic in winter, taking up arms as a common Marine in attacking a British frigate, crossing the Pyrnes mountains in winter to get to Paris and solidify French support and all the while Jefferson stayed safe and warm with his slaves at Montecello.

Who contributed more? Jefferson was a man of words, many not even his own. Adams was a man of words and deeds. If you read more about him you will be in less awe of the Virginians and have a better understanding of the founders.

80 posted on 12/24/2001 7:25:39 AM PST by Ditto
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