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The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism
First Things ^ | Phillip E. Johnson

Posted on 12/22/2001 7:04:34 PM PST by Exnihilo

The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism


Phillip E. Johnson


Copyright (c) 1997 First Things 77 (November 1997): 22-25.

In a retrospective essay on Carl Sagan in the January 9, 1997 New York Review of Books, Harvard Genetics Professor Richard Lewontin tells how he first met Sagan at a public debate in Arkansas in 1964. The two young scientists had been coaxed by senior colleagues to go to Little Rock to debate the affirmative side of the question: "RESOLVED, that the theory of evolution is as proved as is the fact that the earth goes around the sun." Their main opponent was a biology professor from a fundamentalist college, with a Ph.D. from the University of Texas in Zoology. Lewontin reports no details from the debate, except to say that "despite our absolutely compelling arguments, the audience unaccountably voted for the opposition."

Of course, Lewontin and Sagan attributed the vote to the audience’s prejudice in favor of creationism. The resolution was framed in such a way, however, that the affirmative side should have lost even if the jury had been composed of Ivy League philosophy professors. How could the theory of evolution even conceivably be "proved" to the same degree as "the fact that the earth goes around the sun"? The latter is an observable feature of present-day reality, whereas the former deals primarily with non-repeatable events of the very distant past. The appropriate comparison would be between the theory of evolution and the accepted theory of the origin of the solar system.

If "evolution" referred only to currently observable phenomena like domestic animal breeding or finch-beak variation, then winning the debate should have been no problem for Lewontin and Sagan even with a fundamentalist jury. The statement "We breed a great variety of dogs," which rests on direct observation, is much easier to prove than the statement that the earth goes around the sun, which requires sophisticated reasoning. Not even the strictest biblical literalists deny the bred varieties of dogs, the variation of finch beaks, and similar instances within types. The more controversial claims of large-scale evolution are what arouse skepticism. Scientists may think they have good reasons for believing that living organisms evolved naturally from nonliving chemicals, or that complex organs evolved by the accumulation of micromutations through natural selection, but having reasons is not the same as having proof. I have seen people, previously inclined to believe whatever "science says," become skeptical when they realize that the scientists actually do seem to think that variations in finch beaks or peppered moths, or the mere existence of fossils, proves all the vast claims of "evolution." It is as though the scientists, so confident in their answers, simply do not understand the question.

Carl Sagan described the theory of evolution in his final book as the doctrine that "human beings (and all the other species) have slowly evolved by natural processes from a succession of more ancient beings with no divine intervention needed along the way." It is the alleged absence of divine intervention throughout the history of life—the strict materialism of the orthodox theory—that explains why a great many people, only some of whom are biblical fundamentalists, think that Darwinian evolution (beyond the micro level) is basically materialistic philosophy disguised as scientific fact. Sagan himself worried about opinion polls showing that only about 10 percent of Americans believe in a strictly materialistic evolutionary process, and, as Lewontin’s anecdote concedes, some of the doubters have advanced degrees in the relevant sciences. Dissent as widespread as that must rest on something less easily remedied than mere ignorance of facts.

Lewontin eventually parted company with Sagan over how to explain why the theory of evolution seems so obviously true to mainstream scientists and so doubtful to much of the public. Sagan attributed the persistence of unbelief to ignorance and hucksterism and set out to cure the problem with popular books, magazine articles, and television programs promoting the virtues of mainstream science over its fringe rivals. Lewontin, a Marxist whose philosophical sophistication exceeds that of Sagan by several orders of magnitude, came to see the issue as essentially one of basic intellectual commitment rather than factual knowledge.

The reason for opposition to scientific accounts of our origins, according to Lewontin, is not that people are ignorant of facts, but that they have not learned to think from the right starting point. In his words, "The primary problem is not to provide the public with the knowledge of how far it is to the nearest star and what genes are made of. . . . Rather, the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth." What the public needs to learn is that, like it or not, "We exist as material beings in a material world, all of whose phenomena are the consequences of material relations among material entities." In a word, the public needs to accept materialism, which means that they must put God (whom Lewontin calls the "Supreme Extraterrestrial") in the trash can of history where such myths belong.

Although Lewontin wants the public to accept science as the only source of truth, he freely admits that mainstream science itself is not free of the hokum that Sagan so often found in fringe science. As examples he cites three influential scientists who are particularly successful at writing for the public: E. O. Wilson, Richard Dawkins, and Lewis Thomas,

each of whom has put unsubstantiated assertions or counterfactual claims at the very center of the stories they have retailed in the market. Wilson’s Sociobiology and On Human Nature rest on the surface of a quaking marsh of unsupported claims about the genetic determination of everything from altruism to xenophobia. Dawkins’ vulgarizations of Darwinism speak of nothing in evolution but an inexorable ascendancy of genes that are selectively superior, while the entire body of technical advance in experimental and theoretical evolutionary genetics of the last fifty years has moved in the direction of emphasizing nonselective forces in evolution. Thomas, in various essays, propagandized for the success of modern scientific medicine in eliminating death from disease, while the unchallenged statistical compilations on mortality show that in Europe and North America infectious diseases . . . had ceased to be major causes of mortality by the early decades of the twentieth century.

Lewontin laments that even scientists frequently cannot judge the reliability of scientific claims outside their fields of speciality, and have to take the word of recognized authorities on faith. "Who am I to believe about quantum physics if not Steven Weinberg, or about the solar system if not Carl Sagan? What worries me is that they may believe what Dawkins and Wilson tell them about evolution."

One major living scientific popularizer whom Lewontin does not trash is his Harvard colleague and political ally Stephen Jay Gould. Just to fill out the picture, however, it seems that admirers of Dawkins have as low an opinion of Gould as Lewontin has of Dawkins or Wilson. According to a 1994 essay in the New York Review of Books by John Maynard Smith, the dean of British neo-Darwinists, "the evolutionary biologists with whom I have discussed his [Gould’s] work tend to see him as a man whose ideas are so confused as to be hardly worth bothering with, but as one who should not be publicly criticized because he is at least on our side against the creationists. All this would not matter, were it not that he is giving non biologists a largely false picture of the state of evolutionary theory." Lewontin fears that non-biologists will fail to recognize that Dawkins is peddling pseudoscience; Maynard Smith fears exactly the same of Gould.

If eminent experts say that evolution according to Gould is too confused to be worth bothering about, and others equally eminent say that evolution according to Dawkins rests on unsubstantiated assertions and counterfactual claims, the public can hardly be blamed for suspecting that grand-scale evolution may rest on something less impressive than rock-solid, unimpeachable fact. Lewontin confirms this suspicion by explaining why "we" (i.e., the kind of people who read the New York Review) reject out of hand the view of those who think they see the hand of the Creator in the material world:

We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counterintuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen.

That paragraph is the most insightful statement of what is at issue in the creation/evolution controversy that I have ever read from a senior figure in the scientific establishment. It explains neatly how the theory of evolution can seem so certain to scientific insiders, and so shaky to the outsiders. For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose."

The prior commitment explains why evolutionary scientists are not disturbed when they learn that the fossil record does not provide examples of gradual macroevolutionary transformation, despite decades of determined effort by paleontologists to confirm neo-Darwinian presuppositions. That is also why biological chemists like Stanley Miller continue in confidence even when geochemists tell them that the early earth did not have the oxygen-free atmosphere essential for producing the chemicals required by the theory of the origin of life in a prebiotic soup. They reason that there had to be some source (comets?) capable of providing the needed molecules, because otherwise life would not have evolved. When evidence showed that the period available on the early earth for the evolution of life was extremely brief in comparison to the time previously posited for chemical evolution scenarios, Carl Sagan calmly concluded that the chemical evolution of life must be easier than we had supposed, because it happened so rapidly on the early earth.

That is also why neo-Darwinists like Richard Dawkins are not troubled by the Cambrian Explosion, where all the invertebrate animal groups appear suddenly and without identifiable ancestors. Whatever the fossil record may suggest, those Cambrian animals had to evolve by accepted neo-Darwinian means, which is to say by material processes requiring no intelligent guidance or supernatural input. Materialist philosophy demands no less. That is also why Niles Eldredge, surveying the absence of evidence for macroevolutionary transformations in the rich marine invertebrate fossil record, can observe that "evolution always seems to happen somewhere else," and then describe himself on the very next page as a "knee-jerk neo-Darwinist." Finally, that is why Darwinists do not take critics of materialist evolution seriously, but speculate instead about "hidden agendas" and resort immediately to ridicule. In their minds, to question materialism is to question reality. All these specific points are illustrations of what it means to say that "we" have an a priori commitment to materialism.

The scientific leadership cannot afford to disclose that commitment frankly to the public. Imagine what chance the affirmative side would have if the question for public debate were rephrased candidly as "RESOLVED, that everyone should adopt an a priori commitment to materialism." Everyone would see what many now sense dimly: that a methodological premise useful for limited purposes has been expanded to form a metaphysical absolute. Of course people who define science as the search for materialistic explanations will find it useful to assume that such explanations always exist. To suppose that a philosophical preference can validate a cherished scientific theory is to define "science" as a way of supporting prejudice. Yet that is exactly what the Darwinists seem to be doing, when their evidence is evaluated by critics who are willing to question materialism.

One of those critics, bearing impeccable scientific credentials, is Michael Behe, who argues that complex molecular systems (such as bacterial and protozoan flagella, immune systems, blood clotting, and cellular transport) are "irreducibly complex." This means that the systems incorporate elements that interact with each other in such complex ways that it is impossible to describe detailed, testable Darwinian mechanisms for their evolution. (My review of Behe’s Darwin’s Black Box appeared in FT, October 1996.) Never mind for now whether you think that Behe’s argument can prevail over sustained opposition from the materialists. The primary dispute is not over who is going to win, but about whether the argument can even get started. If we know a priori that materialism is true, then contrary evidence properly belongs under the rug, where it has always duly been swept.

For Lewontin, the public’s determined resistance to scientific materialism constitutes "a deep problem in democratic self-governance." Quoting Jesus’ words from the Gospel of John, he thinks that "the truth that makes us free" is not an accumulation of knowledge, but a metaphysical understanding (i.e., materialism) that sets us free from belief in supernatural entities like God. How is the scientific elite to persuade or bamboozle the public to accept the crucial starting point? Lewontin turns for guidance to the most prestigious of all opponents of democracy, Plato. In his dialogue the Gorgias, Plato reports a debate between the rationalist Socrates and three sophists or teachers of rhetoric. The debaters all agree that the public is incompetent to make reasoned decisions on justice and public policy. The question in dispute is whether the effective decision should be made by experts (Socrates) or by the manipulators of words (the sophists).

In familiar contemporary terms, the question might be stated as whether a court should appoint a panel of impartial authorities to decide whether the defendant’s product caused the plaintiff’s cancer, or whether the jury should be swayed by rival trial lawyers each touting their own experts. Much turns on whether we believe that the authorities are truly impartial, or whether they have interests of their own. When the National Academy of Sciences appoints a committee to advise the public on evolution, it consists of persons picked in part for their scientific outlook, which is to say their a priori acceptance of materialism. Members of such a panel know a lot of facts in their specific areas of research and have a lot to lose if the "fact of evolution" is exposed as a philosophical assumption. Should skeptics accept such persons as impartial fact-finders? Lewontin himself knows too much about cognitive elites to say anything so naive, and so in the end he gives up and concludes that "we" do not know how to get the public to the right starting point.

Lewontin is brilliantly insightful, but too crankily honest to be as good a manipulator as his Harvard colleague Stephen Jay Gould. Gould displays both his talent and his unscrupulousness in an essay in the March 1997 issue of Natural History, entitled "Nonoverlapping Magisteria" and subtitled "Science and religion are not in conflict, for their teachings occupy distinctly different domains." With a subtitle like that, you can be sure that Gould is out to reassure the public that evolution leads to no alarming conclusions. True to form, Gould insists that the only dissenters from evolution are "Protestant fundamentalists who believe that every word of the Bible must be literally true." Gould also insists that evolution (he never defines the word) is "both true and entirely compatible with Christian belief." Gould is familiar with nonliteralist opposition to evolutionary naturalism, but he blandly denies that any such phenomenon exists. He even quotes a letter written to the New York Times in answer to an op-ed essay by Michael Behe, without revealing the context. You can do things like that when you know that the media won’t call you to account.

The centerpiece of Gould’s essay is an analysis of the complete text of Pope John Paul’s statement of October 22, 1996 to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences endorsing evolution as "more than a hypothesis." He fails to quote the Pope’s crucial qualification that "theories of evolution which, in accordance with the philosophies inspiring them, consider the spirit as emerging from the forces of living matter or as a mere epiphenomenon of this matter, are incompatible with the truth about man." Of course, a theory based on materialism assumes by definition that there is no "spirit" active in this world that is independent of matter. Gould knows this perfectly well, and he also knows, just as Richard Lewontin does, that the evidence doesn’t support the claims for the creative power of natural selection made by writers such as Richard Dawkins. That is why the philosophy that really supports the theory has to be protected from critical scrutiny.

Gould’s essay is a tissue of half-truths aimed at putting the religious people to sleep, or luring them into a "dialogue" on terms set by the materialists. Thus Gould graciously allows religion to participate in discussions of morality or the meaning of life, because science does not claim authority over such questions of value, and because "Religion is too important to too many people for any dismissal or denigration of the comfort still sought by many folks from theology." Gould insists, however, that all such discussion must cede to science the power to determine the facts, and one of the facts is an evolutionary process that is every bit as materialistic and purposeless for Gould as it is for Lewontin or Dawkins. If religion wants to accept a dialogue on those terms, that’s fine with Gould—but don’t let those religious people think they get to make an independent judgment about the evidence that supposedly supports the "facts." And if the religious people are gullible enough to accept materialism as one of the facts, they won’t be capable of causing much trouble.

The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked. Propagandists like Gould try to give the impression that nothing has changed, but essays like Lewontin’s and books like Behe’s demonstrate that honest thinkers on both sides are near agreement on a redefinition of the conflict. Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. When the public understands this clearly, Lewontin’s Darwinism will start to move out of the science curriculum and into the department of intellectual history, where it can gather dust on the shelf next to Lewontin’s Marxism.


Phillip E. Johnson is Professor of Law at the University of California at Berkeley and author, most recently, of Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds (InterVarsity Press).


TOPICS: Editorial; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: crevolist
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To: week 71
It is just that Darwinism is a "religion", and it is exceptionally difficult to argue someone out of a religious stance; oh they will say it is based on science and all that foolishness but it has reached religious fervor among followers. Have a Merry Christmas.

Personally, I find it fun to debate on here. And I learn a great deal doing it, even if I don't agree completely with the other side. You have yourself a Merry Christmas, also :)

-The Hajman-
121 posted on 12/23/2001 4:49:34 PM PST by Hajman
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To: Hajman
I do admit that is an interesting theory. However, God (Creationists' God) is defined as infinite. But He could still accomplish much the same task. However, Historical Evolution, as it stands alone, has too many flaws in it for me to consider it a very valid theory. It is interesting, but I don't put much trust in it.

Actually, I find that the view of God as being an entity whose powers reach far beyond those of mortal men and yet are not totally boundless is the one in which the universe makes the most 'sense'. If God's power were truly limitless it wouldn't matter what people did or believed, as he could make his will be done regardless.

As to the subject at hand, my personal view of the universe is that God does make occasional 'nudges' to steer things in His desired direction, but that for whatever reason He tends to use such power sparingly. Given even a tiny amount of input from a deity, evolution which would otherwise have a negligible probability of success becomes quite plausible.

To me, the theory of evolution and the theory of divine creation need not be contradictory; evolution could well be a means by which a divine entity could create a vast diversity of life with minimal expenditure of effort.

122 posted on 12/23/2001 4:58:31 PM PST by supercat
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To: Hajman
GAs are perfect examples of Micro Evolution...not Macro.

I guess you'll have to give me your definition of "macroevolution." I generally take it to mean the creation of new structure or function. This is what is observed in GP work. In Koza for example, you start with a handful of basic functions (e.g. addition, subtraction, comparison), generate an initial population of random Lisp algorithms using these functions, breed them by crossing randomly chosen subalgorithms, and select the most fit individuals. To simplify, suppose you have in some step algorithms AB and CD where each letter is a subalgorithm and concatenation is composition. Breeding might produce algorithms AD and CB which are novel functions assuming B!=D. I'd argue that is reasonable to consider this analogous to what I mean by macroevolution.

They're also strictly defined

And you aren't "strictly defined?" Is life not "strictly defined?"

They're allowed to evolve, but only within specific, tight boundries.

Biological life is also constrained by specific boundaries. I think I see what you mean by "tight" and you have a point. However, again I think it is you who have the responsibility to investigate this "tightness," quantify it and show why it leads to qualitatively different outcomes. I don't see any a priori reason for it to be different.

123 posted on 12/23/2001 5:06:31 PM PST by edsheppa
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To: supercat
Actually, I find that the view of God as being an entity whose powers reach far beyond those of mortal men and yet are not totally boundless is the one in which the universe makes the most 'sense'. If God's power were truly limitless it wouldn't matter what people did or believed, as he could make his will be done regardless.

What one can do and what one does are two seperate things.

As to the subject at hand, my personal view of the universe is that God does make occasional 'nudges' to steer things in His desired direction, but that for whatever reason He tends to use such power sparingly. Given even a tiny amount of input from a deity, evolution which would otherwise have a negligible probability of success becomes quite plausible.

To me, the theory of evolution and the theory of divine creation need not be contradictory; evolution could well be a means by which a divine entity could create a vast diversity of life with minimal expenditure of effort.


True, but the way I see it, Historical Evolution isn't all that strong a theory, so I don't believe it's valid enough to count as truth. That's just my personal opinion.

-The Hajman-
124 posted on 12/23/2001 5:11:23 PM PST by Hajman
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To: jlogajan
Berkeley no less. Surely these are the end times when creationists quote Berkeley professors of law!!!

There's something going on that you don't know about at ARN

125 posted on 12/23/2001 5:11:44 PM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: supercat
It is possible to predict the probability that a particle is in any of a number of states, but impossible to tell which state a particle is in without knocking it into some different unknown state.

Suppose the state may be A or B and you have a measuring apparatus that will couple with A but not B. If the particle is not detected you know it is in state B but "without knocking it into some different unknown state."

Of course your point still remains, it's conceivable that some deity is intervening undectably. Hard to imagine evidence for something that's undectable though and I usually need at least some evidence before I give credence to an idea.

126 posted on 12/23/2001 5:14:47 PM PST by edsheppa
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To: edsheppa
And you aren't "strictly defined?" Is life not "strictly defined?"

Not according to Macro Evolution.

Biological life is also constrained by specific boundaries. I think I see what you mean by "tight" and you have a point. However, again I think it is you who have the responsibility to investigate this "tightness," quantify it and show why it leads to qualitatively different outcomes. I don't see any a priori reason for it to be different.

Actually, a tight boundry for change could be though of as output <= input. This is what Micro Evolution falls under. However, Macro Evolution falls under more of the output > input variety. A function is necessary in this case to explain how the first converts into the second (as the first will always be such, no matter how many iterations it goes through, unless something can alter it). As for the 'tightness', it's an inate property in GA algorithms. It's an effect of how the GAs work.

-The Hajman-
127 posted on 12/23/2001 5:15:14 PM PST by Hajman
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To: edsheppa
I must say, you sound like a regular sequipedalian! :-)
128 posted on 12/23/2001 5:15:41 PM PST by week 71
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To: PatrickHenry
It would be quite possible for a deity to manipulate the states of these particles without such manipulations being detectable in any way ...

Yes. But if this divine interference were undetectable, and if the effects were explainable as natural phenomena, how would science be able to determine that things were amiss? And how would anyone be able to make any rational statement about such hidden miracles?

They wouldn't. That's somewhat my point: science and religion need not be contradictory. As long as there are certain phenomena whose exact behavior is not understood (and the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle says there always will be) there is room for a deity to work miracles without violating the laws of nature.

Of course, recognizing whether any particular event was a miracle or lucky chance may also be impossible, but there's nothing wrong with that. If someone flips a coin 100 times and gets heads every time, he might suspect divine intervention [well, maybe a loaded coin]. But even if he decided there was divine intervention, if he gets heads on the 101st time he wouldn't know whether that was divine intervention or if God had stopped intervening but he got lucky anyway.

129 posted on 12/23/2001 5:20:18 PM PST by supercat
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To: lexcorp
"God of the gaps?"

The burden of proof is on you.

My faith has instructed me on what I need to know. You may not like it, but, that's the way it is. You have to go and fill in your own "gaps."

130 posted on 12/23/2001 5:21:55 PM PST by rdb3
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To: jennyp
Ah, so it was correct for previous generations of scientists to use the naturalistic assumption, but today we shouldn't?

Actually, modern science was born out of the Christian worldview. Stanley Jaki makes a convincing argument that the development of Newtonian physics followed from the promulgation of the dogma of "creation from nothing," and the Christian idea of an orderly universe reflecting the ordering Mind of its Creator.

Materialistic reductionism hamstrings natural science unnecessarily. Bad philosophy makes bad science (i.e. 'vestigal organs').

131 posted on 12/23/2001 5:24:15 PM PST by Aquinasfan
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To: jlogajan
You are quick to assign a lack of scientific qualifications to Professor Johnson. What, precisely, are your scientific qualifications?
132 posted on 12/23/2001 5:32:04 PM PST by Binghamton_native
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To: Exnihilo
1. First, I am not a Creationist. . .

2. Second, there is no evidence of a transitional form of any kind.

BAAAAAZZZZZZZZT!

Sir, you're setting off the BS detector. Please let go of one of the above statements and go through the detector again.

133 posted on 12/23/2001 5:54:48 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Exnihilo
First, I am not a Creationist. -- Exnihilio

Not to mention that your screenie refers to the creation of the universe "from nothing." It's also the title of a creationist journal. What would be the big deal about admitting where you're coming from, since it's obvious anyway?

134 posted on 12/23/2001 5:59:39 PM PST by VadeRetro
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To: Hajman
Not according to Macro Evolution. (i.e. life isn't strictly defined according to ME)

Well that's a novel definition as you seem to be saying that Macro Evolution == unconstrained. That's not what I mean by the term and I doubt many others mean it either. My definition is the advent and preservation of novel function. By your definition ME isn't necessary for the biological life we see since that is constrained by natural physical law.

However, Macro Evolution falls under more of the output > input variety.

You'll need to explain what you mean by input and output. Are you saying there's no conceivable sequence of small genetic changes that could lead from the genome of a unicellular organism to yours? It seems evident to me that there is. The input is the original genome and the small changes and the output is your genome. In what way is the output greater than the input?

135 posted on 12/23/2001 6:01:20 PM PST by edsheppa
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To: Aquinasfan
Actually, modern science was born out of the Christian worldview. Stanley Jaki makes a convincing argument that the development of Newtonian physics followed from the promulgation of the dogma of "creation from nothing," and the Christian idea of an orderly universe reflecting the ordering Mind of its Creator. Materialistic reductionism hamstrings natural science unnecessarily. Bad philosophy makes bad science (i.e. 'vestigal organs').

I agree with the above 100%. I know Newton wrote more commentary on the book of Daniel then about science. Could you expound more on what you ment regarding vestigal organs

136 posted on 12/23/2001 6:03:59 PM PST by week 71
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To: week 71
I assume you mean sesquipedalian? I admit to finding a certain amount of precision helpful. Perhaps you could point out which words in my post you found overlong?

Also, I find your point amusing considering your post of the Behe extract wherein:

Trans-retinal eventually falls off of the rhodopsin molecule and must be reconverted to 11-cis-retinal and again bound by opsin to regenerate rhodopsin for another visual cycle. To accomplish this trans-retinal is first chemically modified by an enzyme to transretinol, a form containing two more hydrogen atoms. A second enzyme then isomerizes the molecule to 11-cis-retinol. Finally, a third enzyme removes the previouslyadded hydrogen atoms to form 11-cis-retinal, and the cycle is complete.

137 posted on 12/23/2001 6:15:34 PM PST by edsheppa
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To: edsheppa
Well that's a novel definition as you seem to be saying that Macro Evolution == unconstrained. That's not what I mean by the term and I doubt many others mean it either. My definition is the advent and preservation of novel function. By your definition ME isn't necessary for the biological life we see since that is constrained by natural physical law.

Actually, since we were on the subject of GAs, I was refering to the structure and the information in the organism to get modified.

You'll need to explain what you mean by input and output. Are you saying there's no conceivable sequence of small genetic changes that could lead from the genome of a unicellular organism to yours? It seems evident to me that there is. The input is the original genome and the small changes and the output is your genome. In what way is the output greater than the input?

Perhaps a GA explination could provide more light. In a GA program (such as AL), certain structures are pre-defined, and the evolution they can follow are also define (with these definitions, they're useless). However, even in good AL programs, the information and structures in evolved organisms remain either equal to, or less then, the structures and information that one started out with (there's just more of them). However, if you take bacteria, there's structures in humans (such as the brain) that have no equal in bacteria. Completely new structures, completely new information (and if you figure out how to simply that down to basic information iterations, I'm sure there's a math award somewhere out there waiting for your name on it. Information theory would be far simplier if you could do this). This is what I mean about output and input. In AL, the evolved creatures follow the concept output <= input. I haven't seen one yet that breaks out of that concept (and I've looked). Though I have come across some pretty darn good programs (such as Framsticks. This AL program will start with simple, basic structures and give you some complex organisms, some walk on land, some swim, others crawl or 'slither'. But one point I'll make to you: The structures and information never increase themselves. At least, not in type, but only in quantity, which produces apparent complexities. Macro Evolution requires Evolution to go beyond this, Micro Evolution, doesn't.)

-The Hajman-
138 posted on 12/23/2001 6:18:34 PM PST by Hajman
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To: Aquinasfan
Materialistic reductionism hamstrings natural science unnecessarily.

To the contrary. Reductionism has been a supremely useful constraint. The world is simply too complicated to analyze all at once.

139 posted on 12/23/2001 6:20:00 PM PST by edsheppa
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To: supercat
That's somewhat my point: science and religion need not be contradictory. As long as there are certain phenomena whose exact behavior is not understood (and the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle says there always will be) there is room for a deity to work miracles without violating the laws of nature.

That's not quite what the uncertainty principle is all about, but anyway, you have provided an interesting way to reconcile science and religion. I believe there are two problems with this. First, whenever science gets around to explaining something which was previously not understood, many religious folk become outraged at the "transgression" of science into an area which is claimed to be none of its business. This reaction is inevitable when the scientific explanation is different from the pre-scientific religious viewpoint. The whole evolution debate is an example of this, and the Galileo affair about the solar system was an earlier example. Second, many religious folk come to depend on such unknowns as their "proof" of God, and they become furiously anti-science whenever progress is made.

140 posted on 12/23/2001 6:23:12 PM PST by PatrickHenry
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