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The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism
First Things ^ | Phillip E. Johnson

Posted on 12/22/2001 7:04:34 PM PST by Exnihilo

The Unraveling of Scientific Materialism


Phillip E. Johnson


Copyright (c) 1997 First Things 77 (November 1997): 22-25.

In a retrospective essay on Carl Sagan in the January 9, 1997 New York Review of Books, Harvard Genetics Professor Richard Lewontin tells how he first met Sagan at a public debate in Arkansas in 1964. The two young scientists had been coaxed by senior colleagues to go to Little Rock to debate the affirmative side of the question: "RESOLVED, that the theory of evolution is as proved as is the fact that the earth goes around the sun." Their main opponent was a biology professor from a fundamentalist college, with a Ph.D. from the University of Texas in Zoology. Lewontin reports no details from the debate, except to say that "despite our absolutely compelling arguments, the audience unaccountably voted for the opposition."

Of course, Lewontin and Sagan attributed the vote to the audience’s prejudice in favor of creationism. The resolution was framed in such a way, however, that the affirmative side should have lost even if the jury had been composed of Ivy League philosophy professors. How could the theory of evolution even conceivably be "proved" to the same degree as "the fact that the earth goes around the sun"? The latter is an observable feature of present-day reality, whereas the former deals primarily with non-repeatable events of the very distant past. The appropriate comparison would be between the theory of evolution and the accepted theory of the origin of the solar system.

If "evolution" referred only to currently observable phenomena like domestic animal breeding or finch-beak variation, then winning the debate should have been no problem for Lewontin and Sagan even with a fundamentalist jury. The statement "We breed a great variety of dogs," which rests on direct observation, is much easier to prove than the statement that the earth goes around the sun, which requires sophisticated reasoning. Not even the strictest biblical literalists deny the bred varieties of dogs, the variation of finch beaks, and similar instances within types. The more controversial claims of large-scale evolution are what arouse skepticism. Scientists may think they have good reasons for believing that living organisms evolved naturally from nonliving chemicals, or that complex organs evolved by the accumulation of micromutations through natural selection, but having reasons is not the same as having proof. I have seen people, previously inclined to believe whatever "science says," become skeptical when they realize that the scientists actually do seem to think that variations in finch beaks or peppered moths, or the mere existence of fossils, proves all the vast claims of "evolution." It is as though the scientists, so confident in their answers, simply do not understand the question.

Carl Sagan described the theory of evolution in his final book as the doctrine that "human beings (and all the other species) have slowly evolved by natural processes from a succession of more ancient beings with no divine intervention needed along the way." It is the alleged absence of divine intervention throughout the history of life—the strict materialism of the orthodox theory—that explains why a great many people, only some of whom are biblical fundamentalists, think that Darwinian evolution (beyond the micro level) is basically materialistic philosophy disguised as scientific fact. Sagan himself worried about opinion polls showing that only about 10 percent of Americans believe in a strictly materialistic evolutionary process, and, as Lewontin’s anecdote concedes, some of the doubters have advanced degrees in the relevant sciences. Dissent as widespread as that must rest on something less easily remedied than mere ignorance of facts.

Lewontin eventually parted company with Sagan over how to explain why the theory of evolution seems so obviously true to mainstream scientists and so doubtful to much of the public. Sagan attributed the persistence of unbelief to ignorance and hucksterism and set out to cure the problem with popular books, magazine articles, and television programs promoting the virtues of mainstream science over its fringe rivals. Lewontin, a Marxist whose philosophical sophistication exceeds that of Sagan by several orders of magnitude, came to see the issue as essentially one of basic intellectual commitment rather than factual knowledge.

The reason for opposition to scientific accounts of our origins, according to Lewontin, is not that people are ignorant of facts, but that they have not learned to think from the right starting point. In his words, "The primary problem is not to provide the public with the knowledge of how far it is to the nearest star and what genes are made of. . . . Rather, the problem is to get them to reject irrational and supernatural explanations of the world, the demons that exist only in their imaginations, and to accept a social and intellectual apparatus, Science, as the only begetter of truth." What the public needs to learn is that, like it or not, "We exist as material beings in a material world, all of whose phenomena are the consequences of material relations among material entities." In a word, the public needs to accept materialism, which means that they must put God (whom Lewontin calls the "Supreme Extraterrestrial") in the trash can of history where such myths belong.

Although Lewontin wants the public to accept science as the only source of truth, he freely admits that mainstream science itself is not free of the hokum that Sagan so often found in fringe science. As examples he cites three influential scientists who are particularly successful at writing for the public: E. O. Wilson, Richard Dawkins, and Lewis Thomas,

each of whom has put unsubstantiated assertions or counterfactual claims at the very center of the stories they have retailed in the market. Wilson’s Sociobiology and On Human Nature rest on the surface of a quaking marsh of unsupported claims about the genetic determination of everything from altruism to xenophobia. Dawkins’ vulgarizations of Darwinism speak of nothing in evolution but an inexorable ascendancy of genes that are selectively superior, while the entire body of technical advance in experimental and theoretical evolutionary genetics of the last fifty years has moved in the direction of emphasizing nonselective forces in evolution. Thomas, in various essays, propagandized for the success of modern scientific medicine in eliminating death from disease, while the unchallenged statistical compilations on mortality show that in Europe and North America infectious diseases . . . had ceased to be major causes of mortality by the early decades of the twentieth century.

Lewontin laments that even scientists frequently cannot judge the reliability of scientific claims outside their fields of speciality, and have to take the word of recognized authorities on faith. "Who am I to believe about quantum physics if not Steven Weinberg, or about the solar system if not Carl Sagan? What worries me is that they may believe what Dawkins and Wilson tell them about evolution."

One major living scientific popularizer whom Lewontin does not trash is his Harvard colleague and political ally Stephen Jay Gould. Just to fill out the picture, however, it seems that admirers of Dawkins have as low an opinion of Gould as Lewontin has of Dawkins or Wilson. According to a 1994 essay in the New York Review of Books by John Maynard Smith, the dean of British neo-Darwinists, "the evolutionary biologists with whom I have discussed his [Gould’s] work tend to see him as a man whose ideas are so confused as to be hardly worth bothering with, but as one who should not be publicly criticized because he is at least on our side against the creationists. All this would not matter, were it not that he is giving non biologists a largely false picture of the state of evolutionary theory." Lewontin fears that non-biologists will fail to recognize that Dawkins is peddling pseudoscience; Maynard Smith fears exactly the same of Gould.

If eminent experts say that evolution according to Gould is too confused to be worth bothering about, and others equally eminent say that evolution according to Dawkins rests on unsubstantiated assertions and counterfactual claims, the public can hardly be blamed for suspecting that grand-scale evolution may rest on something less impressive than rock-solid, unimpeachable fact. Lewontin confirms this suspicion by explaining why "we" (i.e., the kind of people who read the New York Review) reject out of hand the view of those who think they see the hand of the Creator in the material world:

We take the side of science in spite of the patent absurdity of some of its constructs, in spite of its failure to fulfill many of its extravagant promises of health and life, in spite of the tolerance of the scientific community for unsubstantiated just-so stories, because we have a prior commitment, a commitment to materialism. It is not that the methods and institutions of science somehow compel us to accept a material explanation of the phenomenal world, but, on the contrary, that we are forced by our a priori adherence to material causes to create an apparatus of investigation and a set of concepts that produce material explanations, no matter how counterintuitive, no matter how mystifying to the uninitiated. Moreover, that materialism is absolute, for we cannot allow a Divine Foot in the door. The eminent Kant scholar Lewis Beck used to say that anyone who could believe in God could believe in anything. To appeal to an omnipotent deity is to allow that at any moment the regularities of nature may be ruptured, that miracles may happen.

That paragraph is the most insightful statement of what is at issue in the creation/evolution controversy that I have ever read from a senior figure in the scientific establishment. It explains neatly how the theory of evolution can seem so certain to scientific insiders, and so shaky to the outsiders. For scientific materialists the materialism comes first; the science comes thereafter. We might more accurately term them "materialists employing science." And if materialism is true, then some materialistic theory of evolution has to be true simply as a matter of logical deduction, regardless of the evidence. That theory will necessarily be at least roughly like neo-Darwinism, in that it will have to involve some combination of random changes and law-like processes capable of producing complicated organisms that (in Dawkins’ words) "give the appearance of having been designed for a purpose."

The prior commitment explains why evolutionary scientists are not disturbed when they learn that the fossil record does not provide examples of gradual macroevolutionary transformation, despite decades of determined effort by paleontologists to confirm neo-Darwinian presuppositions. That is also why biological chemists like Stanley Miller continue in confidence even when geochemists tell them that the early earth did not have the oxygen-free atmosphere essential for producing the chemicals required by the theory of the origin of life in a prebiotic soup. They reason that there had to be some source (comets?) capable of providing the needed molecules, because otherwise life would not have evolved. When evidence showed that the period available on the early earth for the evolution of life was extremely brief in comparison to the time previously posited for chemical evolution scenarios, Carl Sagan calmly concluded that the chemical evolution of life must be easier than we had supposed, because it happened so rapidly on the early earth.

That is also why neo-Darwinists like Richard Dawkins are not troubled by the Cambrian Explosion, where all the invertebrate animal groups appear suddenly and without identifiable ancestors. Whatever the fossil record may suggest, those Cambrian animals had to evolve by accepted neo-Darwinian means, which is to say by material processes requiring no intelligent guidance or supernatural input. Materialist philosophy demands no less. That is also why Niles Eldredge, surveying the absence of evidence for macroevolutionary transformations in the rich marine invertebrate fossil record, can observe that "evolution always seems to happen somewhere else," and then describe himself on the very next page as a "knee-jerk neo-Darwinist." Finally, that is why Darwinists do not take critics of materialist evolution seriously, but speculate instead about "hidden agendas" and resort immediately to ridicule. In their minds, to question materialism is to question reality. All these specific points are illustrations of what it means to say that "we" have an a priori commitment to materialism.

The scientific leadership cannot afford to disclose that commitment frankly to the public. Imagine what chance the affirmative side would have if the question for public debate were rephrased candidly as "RESOLVED, that everyone should adopt an a priori commitment to materialism." Everyone would see what many now sense dimly: that a methodological premise useful for limited purposes has been expanded to form a metaphysical absolute. Of course people who define science as the search for materialistic explanations will find it useful to assume that such explanations always exist. To suppose that a philosophical preference can validate a cherished scientific theory is to define "science" as a way of supporting prejudice. Yet that is exactly what the Darwinists seem to be doing, when their evidence is evaluated by critics who are willing to question materialism.

One of those critics, bearing impeccable scientific credentials, is Michael Behe, who argues that complex molecular systems (such as bacterial and protozoan flagella, immune systems, blood clotting, and cellular transport) are "irreducibly complex." This means that the systems incorporate elements that interact with each other in such complex ways that it is impossible to describe detailed, testable Darwinian mechanisms for their evolution. (My review of Behe’s Darwin’s Black Box appeared in FT, October 1996.) Never mind for now whether you think that Behe’s argument can prevail over sustained opposition from the materialists. The primary dispute is not over who is going to win, but about whether the argument can even get started. If we know a priori that materialism is true, then contrary evidence properly belongs under the rug, where it has always duly been swept.

For Lewontin, the public’s determined resistance to scientific materialism constitutes "a deep problem in democratic self-governance." Quoting Jesus’ words from the Gospel of John, he thinks that "the truth that makes us free" is not an accumulation of knowledge, but a metaphysical understanding (i.e., materialism) that sets us free from belief in supernatural entities like God. How is the scientific elite to persuade or bamboozle the public to accept the crucial starting point? Lewontin turns for guidance to the most prestigious of all opponents of democracy, Plato. In his dialogue the Gorgias, Plato reports a debate between the rationalist Socrates and three sophists or teachers of rhetoric. The debaters all agree that the public is incompetent to make reasoned decisions on justice and public policy. The question in dispute is whether the effective decision should be made by experts (Socrates) or by the manipulators of words (the sophists).

In familiar contemporary terms, the question might be stated as whether a court should appoint a panel of impartial authorities to decide whether the defendant’s product caused the plaintiff’s cancer, or whether the jury should be swayed by rival trial lawyers each touting their own experts. Much turns on whether we believe that the authorities are truly impartial, or whether they have interests of their own. When the National Academy of Sciences appoints a committee to advise the public on evolution, it consists of persons picked in part for their scientific outlook, which is to say their a priori acceptance of materialism. Members of such a panel know a lot of facts in their specific areas of research and have a lot to lose if the "fact of evolution" is exposed as a philosophical assumption. Should skeptics accept such persons as impartial fact-finders? Lewontin himself knows too much about cognitive elites to say anything so naive, and so in the end he gives up and concludes that "we" do not know how to get the public to the right starting point.

Lewontin is brilliantly insightful, but too crankily honest to be as good a manipulator as his Harvard colleague Stephen Jay Gould. Gould displays both his talent and his unscrupulousness in an essay in the March 1997 issue of Natural History, entitled "Nonoverlapping Magisteria" and subtitled "Science and religion are not in conflict, for their teachings occupy distinctly different domains." With a subtitle like that, you can be sure that Gould is out to reassure the public that evolution leads to no alarming conclusions. True to form, Gould insists that the only dissenters from evolution are "Protestant fundamentalists who believe that every word of the Bible must be literally true." Gould also insists that evolution (he never defines the word) is "both true and entirely compatible with Christian belief." Gould is familiar with nonliteralist opposition to evolutionary naturalism, but he blandly denies that any such phenomenon exists. He even quotes a letter written to the New York Times in answer to an op-ed essay by Michael Behe, without revealing the context. You can do things like that when you know that the media won’t call you to account.

The centerpiece of Gould’s essay is an analysis of the complete text of Pope John Paul’s statement of October 22, 1996 to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences endorsing evolution as "more than a hypothesis." He fails to quote the Pope’s crucial qualification that "theories of evolution which, in accordance with the philosophies inspiring them, consider the spirit as emerging from the forces of living matter or as a mere epiphenomenon of this matter, are incompatible with the truth about man." Of course, a theory based on materialism assumes by definition that there is no "spirit" active in this world that is independent of matter. Gould knows this perfectly well, and he also knows, just as Richard Lewontin does, that the evidence doesn’t support the claims for the creative power of natural selection made by writers such as Richard Dawkins. That is why the philosophy that really supports the theory has to be protected from critical scrutiny.

Gould’s essay is a tissue of half-truths aimed at putting the religious people to sleep, or luring them into a "dialogue" on terms set by the materialists. Thus Gould graciously allows religion to participate in discussions of morality or the meaning of life, because science does not claim authority over such questions of value, and because "Religion is too important to too many people for any dismissal or denigration of the comfort still sought by many folks from theology." Gould insists, however, that all such discussion must cede to science the power to determine the facts, and one of the facts is an evolutionary process that is every bit as materialistic and purposeless for Gould as it is for Lewontin or Dawkins. If religion wants to accept a dialogue on those terms, that’s fine with Gould—but don’t let those religious people think they get to make an independent judgment about the evidence that supposedly supports the "facts." And if the religious people are gullible enough to accept materialism as one of the facts, they won’t be capable of causing much trouble.

The debate about creation and evolution is not deadlocked. Propagandists like Gould try to give the impression that nothing has changed, but essays like Lewontin’s and books like Behe’s demonstrate that honest thinkers on both sides are near agreement on a redefinition of the conflict. Biblical literalism is not the issue. The issue is whether materialism and rationality are the same thing. Darwinism is based on an a priori commitment to materialism, not on a philosophically neutral assessment of the evidence. Separate the philosophy from the science, and the proud tower collapses. When the public understands this clearly, Lewontin’s Darwinism will start to move out of the science curriculum and into the department of intellectual history, where it can gather dust on the shelf next to Lewontin’s Marxism.


Phillip E. Johnson is Professor of Law at the University of California at Berkeley and author, most recently, of Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds (InterVarsity Press).


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To: jennyp
Yes, but ID assumes the existence of a supernatural person, who uses their intellect to selectively suspend the laws of nature at a time & place of their choosing or their whim. There's no way you could develop a science that purports to predict this God's choices.

ID, heck. Basic Monotheistic religion is based upon that idea(not always assumed, some monotheists believe that some sort of miracle-doing deity is rationally necessary). Are you trying to put on that tired atheistic carnard that believers cannot be scientists? I have two generations of chemists in my family to prove you wrong.

As for miracles, first: there must be a law already for there to be an exception. A thing cannot be placed outside of the law if there is no law to begin with. As mainstream monotheists hold that God both created the law, yet is not bound by that law, I still cannot see the trouble. That God could make the water run uphill does not require that we doubt its usually down-hill course. And I won't even bring Hume into the equation. (despite being anti-miraculous, he doubted that we could even say with certainty that the sun shall rise tomorrow.)

101 posted on 12/23/2001 12:52:30 PM PST by Dumb_Ox
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To: Dumb_Ox
But the basic assumption of religious creationists is that God decided what the laws would be in the first place! Remember the Anthropic Principle, as in: "Of all the physical laws & fundamental ratios there 'could have been', God decided to set them up in precisely the ratios that made life as we know it today possible."

I respect your chemist relatives, but when they do chemistry, they rely on the fundamental consistency of nature & the inviolability of natural physical laws. By not working miracles into their scientific theories about chemistry, they're acknowledging that it is impossible to do science without an a-priori commitment to methodological naturalism: the assumption that natural laws don't get suspended on some supernatural person's whim.

102 posted on 12/23/2001 2:11:29 PM PST by jennyp
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To: jennyp
But the basic assumption of religious creationists is that God decided what the laws would be in the first place! Remember the Anthropic Principle, as in: "Of all the physical laws & fundamental ratios there 'could have been', God decided to set them up in precisely the ratios that made life as we know it today possible."

I respect your chemist relatives, but when they do chemistry, they rely on the fundamental consistency of nature & the inviolability of natural physical laws. By not working miracles into their scientific theories about chemistry, they're acknowledging that it is impossible to do science without an a-priori commitment to methodological naturalism: the assumption that natural laws don't get suspended on some supernatural person's whim.


That's a rather simplisitic view of things. Let's say that I create a computer environment with AL and AI, and set rules of interaction within the environment, and allow the AL/AI creatures to learn about it. If I chose to then interact every now and then, does that negate the rules of the environment, or create something which causes the AL/AI creatures to be unable to properly learn the rules of their universe? Of course not. The rules are still there, and are still running. They just get modified locally time to time by me. However, my interaction with the universe is on such a small scale compared to how the universe manages itself that the creatures of that universe don't need to worry about understanding what I do. They'd take it as a 'quirk', or 'miracle' (if they were capable of understanding such concepts). To claim that science would need to be completely suspended because God interacts with us every now and then on a very local, and relatively small, scale, is laughable. The real question is why. Why should they suspend science? There's no logical reason for it. This seems more like an argument of emotion then it does of reason (since we can't know every single little thing we should suspend science). Even science admits it can't, and possibly won't be able to, explain every little thing, but it doesn't suspend itself. Even if it doesn't understand something, it still tries to explain it (See: Quantum Mechanics). Simply don't use science to explain God's interaction with the universe. It's really that simple.

-The Hajman-
103 posted on 12/23/2001 2:21:15 PM PST by Hajman
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To: Exnihilo
A clip from Michael Behe may illuminate what the real problem for Darwinists is...

In general, biological processes on the molecular level are performed by networks of proteins, each member of which carries out a particular task in a chain.

Let us return to the question, how do we see? Although to Darwin the primary event of vision was a black box, through the efforts of many biochemists an answer to the question of sight is at hand. 4 When light strikes the retina a photon is absorbed by an organic molecule called 11-cis-retinal, causing it to rearrange within picoseconds to trans-retinal. The change in shape of retinal forces a corresponding change in shape of the protein, rhodopsin, to which it is tightly bound. As a consequence of the protein's metamorphosis, the behavior of the protein changes in a very specific way. The altered protein can now interact with another protein called transducin. Before associating with rhodopsin, transducin is tightly bound to a small organic molecule called GDP, but when it binds to rhodopsin the GDP dissociates itself from transducin and a molecule called GTP, which is closely related to, but critically different from, GDP, binds to transducin.

The exchange of GTP for GDP in the transducinrhodopsin complex alters its behavior. GTP-transducinrhodopsin binds to a protein called phosphodiesterase, located in the inner membrane of the cell. When bound by rhodopsin and its entourage, the phosphodiesterase acquires the ability to chemically cleave a molecule called cGMP. Initially there are a lot of cGMP molecules in the cell, but the action of the phosphodiesterase lowers the concentration of cGMP. Activating the phosphodiesterase can be likened to pulling the plug in a bathtub, lowering the level of water.

A second membrane protein which binds cGMP, called an ion channel, can be thought of as a special gateway regulating the number of sodium ions in the cell. The ion channel normally allows sodium ions to flow into the cell, while a separate protein actively pumps them out again. The dual action of the ion channel and pump proteins keeps the level of sodium ions in the cell within a narrow range. When the concentration of cGMP is reduced from its normal value through cleavage by the phosphodiesterase, many channels close, resulting in a reduced cellular concentration of positively charged sodium ions. This causes an imbalance of charges across the cell membrane which, finally, causes a current to be transmitted down the optic nerve to the brain: the result, when interpreted by the brain, is vision. If the biochemistry of vision were limited to the reactions listed above, the cell would quickly deplete its supply of 11-cis-retinal and cGMP while also becoming depleted of sodium ions. Thus a system is required to limit the signal that is generated and restore the cell to its original state; there are several mechanisms which do this. Normally, in the dark, the ion channel, in addition to sodium ions, also allows calcium ions to enter the cell; calcium is pumped back out by a different protein in order to maintain a constant intracellular calcium concentration. However, when cGMP levels fall, shutting down the ion channel and decreasing the sodium ion concentration, calcium ion concentration is also decreased. The phosphodiesterase enzyme, which destroys cGMP, is greatly slowed down at lower calcium concentration. Additionally, a protein called guanylate cyclase begins to resynthesize cGMP when calcium levels start to fall. Meanwhile, while all of this is going on, metarhodopsin II is chemically modified by an enzyme called rhodopsin kinase, which places a phosphate group on its substrate. The modified rhodopsin is then bound by a protein dubbed arrestin, which prevents the rhodopsin from further activating transducin. Thus the cell contains mechanisms to limit the amplified signal started by a single photon.

Trans-retinal eventually falls off of the rhodopsin molecule and must be reconverted to 11-cis-retinal and again bound by opsin to regenerate rhodopsin for another visual cycle. To accomplish this trans-retinal is first chemically modified by an enzyme to transretinol, a form containing two more hydrogen atoms. A second enzyme then isomerizes the molecule to 11-cis-retinol. Finally, a third enzyme removes the previouslyadded hydrogen atoms to form 11-cis-retinal, and the cycle is complete.

104 posted on 12/23/2001 2:28:42 PM PST by week 71
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To: Hajman
Let's say that I create a computer environment with AL and AI, and set rules of interaction within the environment, and allow the AL/AI creatures to learn about it. If I chose to then interact every now and then, does that negate the rules of the environment, or create something which causes the AL/AI creatures to be unable to properly learn the rules of their universe? Of course not. The rules are still there, and are still running. They just get modified locally time to time by me. However, my interaction with the universe is on such a small scale compared to how the universe manages itself that the creatures of that universe don't need to worry about understanding what I do. They'd take it as a 'quirk', or 'miracle' ...

No they wouldn't! Not if they were scientists! All scientific progress in any given field can be divided into 2 parts: The initial understanding of the basic regularities, and later the refinements to the original theories made necessary by those "quirky exceptions" to the rules that the next generation of scientists keep discovering. If scientists assumed all exceptions to the initial theories were nothing more than the result of supernatural beings stepping in & making miracles at their (unpredictable by us) whim, then each scientific discipline would still be stuck at the beginning.

I can only begin to think of how much of our current understanding of the world - how many discoveries, inventions, etc. - came about because of anomalies that our commitment to methodological naturalism impelled us to to explain in naturalistic terms. Yet you think proper scientific practice should be to just write off anomalies as miracles???

105 posted on 12/23/2001 3:03:53 PM PST by jennyp
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To: jennyp
No they wouldn't! Not if they were scientists! All scientific progress in any given field can be divided into 2 parts: The initial understanding of the basic regularities, and later the refinements to the original theories made necessary by those "quirky exceptions" to the rules that the next generation of scientists keep discovering. If scientists assumed all exceptions to the initial theories were nothing more than the result of supernatural beings stepping in & making miracles at their (unpredictable by us) whim, then each scientific discipline would still be stuck at the beginning.

Only if they pre-assumed that what we see is all we get..and that's not a very objective way of looking at things.

I can only begin to think of how much of our current understanding of the world - how many discoveries, inventions, etc. - came about because of anomalies that our commitment to methodological naturalism impelled us to to explain in naturalistic terms. Yet you think proper scientific practice should be to just write off anomalies as miracles???

Nope. They should try to explain them. However, along with everything that science can explain, it need to recognize it's own limitations and not try to claim it'll explain everything. If there's something else out there besides what we can observe, then it's beyond modern science to explain. Simply put, materialism requires the assumption that nothing else is out there. And even for many modern theories of space and time, that's a pretty poor assumption.

-The Hajman-
106 posted on 12/23/2001 3:08:10 PM PST by Hajman
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Comment #107 Removed by Moderator

To: Hajman
). To claim that science would need to be completely suspended because God interacts with us every now and then on a very local, and relatively small, scale, is laughable.

Imagine that God does have supernatural power, but his power is not infinite; all he can do is add one carefully-aimed photon to the universe every day, but he is not bound by the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and is thus able to control the energy level, velocity, and placement of that photon to ensure the optimal effect.

If that were the case, evolution would be an immensely useful tool for God to create a great diversity of life with a minimum expenditure of energy on His part. The laws of the universe as we understand them would still pretty much hold, but well-placed small "nudges" to the universe would allow for considerable control of its overall direction.

108 posted on 12/23/2001 3:15:34 PM PST by supercat
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To: lexcorp
First, extinctuion can't happen. Whoops, well, the fossil record clearly demonstrates otherwise. Then, organisms can't evolve to meet environmental challenges. Whoops, developed resistance to antibiotics blows that out of the water.

When you find me any nutcase Creationists that have ever believed what you just claimed, then let me know. There's no argument in extinction or Micro Evolution. There is, however, in Macro Evolution (and your resistance example is a perfect Micro Evolution example).

Then there weren't any transitional forms. Whoops, the fossil record stomps all over that.

Actually, the only thing that could stomp over that is the assumption that Macro Evolution happend to begin with. This is one of the primary flaws with those that try to claim Historical Evolution is fact: You can't really prove Macro Evolution is fact without the transitional fossiles, and you can't really prove they're transitional fossiles without proving Macro Evolution is fact. Unless you want to build a time machine and do some observations.

Then "life can't come from lifelessness." Whoops...

Can't say 'whoops' until it's done.

When a virus or other extremely simple cell is grown in a lab from nothing more than basic chemicals, what is your God Of The Gaps going to be challenged with next?

Intelligent design?

-The Hajman-
109 posted on 12/23/2001 3:21:59 PM PST by Hajman
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To: supercat
Imagine that God does have supernatural power, but his power is not infinite; all he can do is add one carefully-aimed photon to the universe every day, but he is not bound by the Heisenberg uncertainty principle and is thus able to control the energy level, velocity, and placement of that photon to ensure the optimal effect.

If that were the case, evolution would be an immensely useful tool for God to create a great diversity of life with a minimum expenditure of energy on His part. The laws of the universe as we understand them would still pretty much hold, but well-placed small "nudges" to the universe would allow for considerable control of its overall direction.


I do admit that is an interesting theory. However, God (Creationists' God) is defined as infinite. But He could still accomplish much the same task. However, Historical Evolution, as it stands alone, has too many flaws in it for me to consider it a very valid theory. It is interesting, but I don't put much trust in it.

-The Hajman-
110 posted on 12/23/2001 3:24:34 PM PST by Hajman
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To: Hajman
You may at this point want to look at post 100, or you could keep trying. :-)
111 posted on 12/23/2001 3:25:32 PM PST by week 71
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To: week 71
You may at this point want to look at post 100, or you could keep trying. :-)

And what is the point of post 100?

-The Hajman-
112 posted on 12/23/2001 3:48:30 PM PST by Hajman
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To: Exnihilo
There is absolutely ZERO scientific basis for believing [natural evolution is capable of creating the "specified complexity" we observe in biological life].

I can only assume you haven't looked around for some evidence. Simulations of a simplified nature have produced what I think it's fair to call "specified complexity." The simulations use random crossings and changes with a selection function. The outcome is inevitably algorithms highly adpated to their artificial "environment" as defined by the fitness function. Any programmer will undoubtedly agree that the "code" produced is very complex, almost unreadable in fact, but still satisfies the specification. The techniques are called "genetic programming" and the output are called "genetic algorithms" and you can find a lot of information about this on the web.

Now it's fair to point out that there have been no unsimplified simulations of natural evolution due to the extraordinary complexity of such simulations. However, the simplified simulations do have what I (and I suspect most people) consider the essential characteristics of natural evolution - randomness, variation, and selection. It would seem to me a most natural conclusion that there's no reason natural evolution should be less capable than much simplified processes.

In fact, it seems to me that it's you who needs to provide the compelling contrary argument. What is it about natural evolution that makes is less powerful than these drastically simplified simulations?

113 posted on 12/23/2001 3:49:23 PM PST by edsheppa
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To: edsheppa
Any programmer will undoubtedly agree that the "code" produced is very complex, almost unreadable in fact, but still satisfies the specification. The techniques are called "genetic programming" and the output are called "genetic algorithms" and you can find a lot of information about this on the web.

I'm a programmer, and I'm familiar with GAs (Genetic Algorithms), and from what I've seen, GAs are perfect examples of Micro Evolution...not Macro. They show what happens biologically every day. Not what's claimed to have happend over millions of years. They're also strictly defined (in fact, if you don't strictly define them, they produce useless data). They're allowed to evolve, but only within specific, tight boundries.

-The Hajman-
114 posted on 12/23/2001 3:59:50 PM PST by Hajman
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To: patrickhenry
Placemarker.
115 posted on 12/23/2001 4:17:32 PM PST by PatrickHenry
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To: Hajman
I can only begin to think of how much of our current understanding of the world - how many discoveries, inventions, etc. - came about because of anomalies that our commitment to methodological naturalism impelled us to to explain in naturalistic terms. Yet you think proper scientific practice should be to just write off anomalies as miracles???

Nope. They should try to explain them. However, along with everything that science can explain, it need to recognize it's own limitations and not try to claim it'll explain everything. If there's something else out there besides what we can observe, then it's beyond modern science to explain. ...

Ah, so it was correct for previous generations of scientists to use the naturalistic assumption, but today we shouldn't?

C'mon, Hajman. You must admit that methodological naturalism is the fundamental reason why science has brought us to today's level of remarkable wealth & technology today.

Where would you draw the line? When a hypothetical scientist finds an observational, exactly what is the protocol they should follow in determining whether it's caused by a currently unknown feature of the natural world or an ad-hoc miracle by a supernatural person? Was cold fusion a new discovery that's still too poorly understood to be reproduced consistently, or experimental error, or a joke played on us by one of those Gods? How do you tell?

116 posted on 12/23/2001 4:21:47 PM PST by jennyp
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To: jennyp
If scientists assumed all exceptions to the initial theories were nothing more than the result of supernatural beings stepping in & making miracles at their (unpredictable by us) whim, then each scientific discipline would still be stuck at the beginning.

Perhaps so, but it is already scientifically established that certain things are unmeasurable. It is possible to predict the probability that a particle is in any of a number of states, but impossible to tell which state a particle is in without knocking it into some different unknown state.

It would be quite possible for a deity to manipulate the states of these particles without such manipulations being detectable in any way, within certain limits (if a diety were to alter the flight of tossed a coin so as to make it come up "heads", nobody would notice; if a diety altered the flight of a tossed coin 50 times in a row so that it came up heads every time, however, someone would think something afoot). Given that even such microscopic changes could, if well-selected, have macroscopic effects, it would seem they would provide at least one means by which a diety could affect things in the universe while remaining undetectable.

117 posted on 12/23/2001 4:35:26 PM PST by supercat
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To: jennyp
Ah, so it was correct for previous generations of scientists to use the naturalistic assumption, but today we shouldn't?

They might have used naturalistic assumption, but not materialistic assumption. There is a difference.

C'mon, Hajman. You must admit that methodological naturalism is the fundamental reason why science has brought us to today's level of remarkable wealth & technology today.

Not naturalism. Objectivism. Something I find oddly lacking in Historical Evolution from many people (not everyone though).

Where would you draw the line? When a hypothetical scientist finds an observational, exactly what is the protocol they should follow in determining whether it's caused by a currently unknown feature of the natural world or an ad-hoc miracle by a supernatural person? Was cold fusion a new discovery that's still too poorly understood to be reproduced consistently, or experimental error, or a joke played on us by one of those Gods? How do you tell?

Try to explain it with objective science. If it seems to go contrary to (not just unexplained, but seems to contradict) science, and if science can't explain it, it may not be 'natural', as far as we know it. For instance, we don't attempt to explain time in 3 dimensions (at least, most theories I've read), but rather in 4 dimensions, or some other unobserved (possibly unobservable) medium (I've seen some hard materialists here at FR claim there is no 4th dimension, nor are there other universes, because we can't observe them). Not every theory can be explain materialistically. Aside from that, if you think about it, God is natural. Whatever 'reality' God exists in (if one could look at it that way) would be Reality (big R, that which exists), and ours would be a possible subset, a reality (small r, that which we observe to exist). Not even science claims a materialistic view (look at many of the theoretical space/time theories).

I'm not saying that we should give up science and explain everything as a miracle. On the contrary, I take the stance many God-believing scientists have taken before: That the universe is a properly working 'device', and because of that, we can learn how it works, and use science to understand why things work. I say apply science to everything we can, but at the same time, recognize it's limitations to that which we can observe and test.

-The Hajman-
118 posted on 12/23/2001 4:41:54 PM PST by Hajman
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To: Hajman
It is just that Darwinism is a "religion", and it is exceptionally difficult to argue someone out of a religious stance; oh they will say it is based on science and all that foolishness but it has reached religious fervor among followers. Have a Merry Christmas.
119 posted on 12/23/2001 4:47:27 PM PST by week 71
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To: supercat
It would be quite possible for a deity to manipulate the states of these particles without such manipulations being detectable in any way ...

Yes. But if this divine interference were undetectable, and if the effects were explainable as natural phenomena, how would science be able to determine that things were amiss? And how would anyone be able to make any rational statement about such hidden miracles?

120 posted on 12/23/2001 4:48:03 PM PST by PatrickHenry
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