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I am sorry Whiskey papa, but you are so WRONG about Lincoln not willing to put up with Slavery, since everyone loves to use lincoln quote, I will use on as well.

Preservation of the union was Lincolns primary goal in the civil war, 1861-1865. it was"not either to save or to destroy Slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."

Oh yeah, slavery was THE issue wasn't it? NOT.

Now as far as secession is concerned and whether indeed it was legal.

Horace Greely: "If the Declaration of Independance justified the secession of 3 million colonists in 1776, why did it not justify the secession of 5 million southerners from the Union in 1861."

How many states has the United States helped to secede from Russia and other nations since 1861?

The act of forming the Federal government was, as Rawle stated "the act of many independant states", and "those who have the power to make, have the power to unmake".

"To deny this right [secession from the Union] would be inconsistent with the principle on which all our political systems are founded, which is, that the people have in all cases, a right to determine how they will be governed."

According to Rawle, if a majority of the people of a state peacefully and deliberately "resolve to relinquish the republican form of government, they ceased to be members of the Union." But if a faction or a small group of people takes control of a State by violence and thereby destroys Republican government, at that time "the Union is bound to employ its power to prevent it." The only pretext for Federal intervention in the affairs of a State is when the will of the majority of established electors has been usurped.

- All this comes from William Rawle, LL. D 1825. This is in the book A view of the Constitution by William Rawle, published in 1825 Secession as Taught at West Point.

These were constitutional views taught at West Point. Referenced in The Centennial of the United States Military Academy at West Point,

i.e. secession was taught to be Constitutional and legal at West Point, so long as it was carried out by the will of a majority of that state.

Now as far as Lincoln and his love of the constitution.

UNCONSTITUTIONAL ACTS BY LINCOLN:

"Constitutional Problems under Lincoln," James G. Randall, 1951, Urbana: University of Illinois Press:

"Among the unconstitutional and dictatorial acts performed by Lincoln were initiating and conducting a war by decree for months without the consent or advice of Congress; declaring martial law; confiscating private property; suspending habeas corpus; conscripting the railroads and censoring telegraph lines; imprisoning as many as 30,000 Northern citizens without trial; deporting a member of Congress, Clement L. Vallandigham of Ohio, after Vallandigham - a fierce opponent of the Morrill tariff -- protested imposition of an income tax at a Democratic Party meeting in Ohio; and shutting down hundreds of Northern newspapers."

The Confederate War, Gary Gallagher, 1998, Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press:

"The Emancipation Proclamation caused a desertion crisis in the United States Army. At least 200,000 Northern soldiers deserted; another 120,000 evaded conscription; and another 90,000 Northern men fled to Canada to evade the draft, while thousands more hid in the mountains of central Pennsylvania 'where they lay beyond the easy reach of enrolling officers.'"

Abraham Lincoln, as cited in "The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln," Roy Basler, ed. 1953 New Brunswick, N.J.,: Rutgers University Press:

"Send them to Liberia, to their own native land. But free them and make them politically and socially our equals? My own feelings will not admit this."

"Emancipating Slaves, Enslaving Free Men," Jeffrey Rogers Hummel; Laissez Faire Books

"The Lincoln Administration imprisoned at least 14,000 (Northern) civilians throughout the course of the war. ... The federal government simultaneously monitored and censored both the mails and telegraphs. ... It also suppressed newspapers. Over three hundred, including the Chicago Times, the New York World, and the Philadelphia Evening Journal, had to cease publication for varying periods."

Emancipating Slaves, Enslaving Free Men," Jeffrey Rogers Hummel; Laissez Faire Books

Former Democratic Congressman Clement L. Vallandigham of Ohio, running for governor, "delivered a speech in May 1863 that accused the President of unnecessarily prolonging the conflict. The Union commander in Ohio" -- never a war zone -- "rousted Vallandigham from his home at night and jailed him. A military court handed down a sentence of confinement for the war's duration, but public indignation forced Lincoln to commute the sentence to exile behind Confederate lines."

Oh yes, Lincoln was a hero and a statesman, NOT, he was a tyrant and a traitor!!

I am sorry Whiskey papa, but you are so WRONG about Lincoln not willing to put up with Slavery, since everyone loves to use lincoln quote, I will use on as well.

Preservation of the union was Lincolns primary goal in the civil war, 1861-1865. it was"not either to save or to destroy Slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."

Here is a more complete quote. Funny how the neo-confederates never seem to make a complete quote of this oft-quoted letter.

"I would save the Union. I would save it the shortest way under the Constitution. The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be would would NOT save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and not to either save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do that, and if I could save by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forebear, I forebear because I do not think it will help save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe more will help the cause. I shall endeavor to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.

I have herein stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men everywhere could be free."

A. Lincoln 8/22/62

The main thing to keep in mind regarding Lincoln is that his bedrock position was that slavery NOT be allowed to expand into the territorries. He never deviated from this. That --was-- enough to set the slave holders off, however. Lincoln's name did not even appear on the ballot in South Carolina and several other southern states. Seven states passed secession ordinances or otherwise attempted to overthrow the federal government within their boundaries before Lincoln even took office. It's unrealistic to say Lincoln, given the conditions of his time, should have immediately said upon taking office, that he demanded an immediate emancipation of all slaves when seven states were attempting to form a separate nation.

Lincoln in this time frame didn't favor immediate emancipation in any case, unless it was coupled with repopulating blacks outside the country. That is the fact of the matter. On the other hand, as the war progressed Lincoln said:

"When you give the Negro these rights," he said, "when you put a gun in his hands, it prophesies something more: it foretells that he is to have the full enjoyment of his liberty and his manhood."

And later:

"it is also unsatisfactory to some that the elective franchise is not given to the colored man. I would myself prefer that it were now conferred on the very intelligent, and on those who serve our cause as soldiers."

4/11/65

Note the date. It was over this speech that Booth vowed to kill Lincoln, and three days later, he did.

So Lincoln's ideas grew and changed over time. Those that would attempt to besmirch Lincoln's memory typically want to focus on Lincoln's comments during the 1850's and exclude what he said as president because it doesn't suit them. The record shows that by the end of his life, Lincoln was coming to the conclusion that blacks deserved ALL the rights of citizenship.

Your position, as I like to say, is not well supported in the record. If you continue to spout the sort of complete nonsense some do, I will say more.

I will also point out that this famous letter to Greeley you butcher was written in just the same time frame that Lincoln decided to issue the Emancipation Proclamation.

Walt