Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Physicists Say Can Find No Sign of 'God Particle'
Reuters / Yahoo ^ | December 5, 2001

Posted on 12/06/2001 4:46:03 AM PST by Darth Reagan

Physicists Say Can Find No Sign of 'God Particle'

LONDON (Reuters) - After years of searching and months of sifting through data, scientists have still not found the elusive sub-atomic particle that could help to unravel the secrets of the universe, a science magazine said on Wednesday.

The Higgs boson, the missing link which could explain why matter has mass and other fundamental laws of particle physics, is still missing -- and physicists fear it may not exist.

``It's more likely than not that there is no Higgs,'' John Swain, of Northeastern University in Boston, told New Scientist magazine.

Scientists have been searching for the Higgs particle ever since Peter Higgs of Edinburgh University first proposed in the 1960s that it could explain why matter has mass.

Using the world's largest particle accelerator at the CERN (news - web sites) nuclear physics lab near Geneva, scientists had hunted for the Higgs boson, which has been dubbed the ``God particle,'' until the accelerator was closed late last year.

Accelerators hurl particles at nearly the speed of light on a collision course to break them up so scientists can study the nature of matter.

Scientists of the Electroweak Working Group at CERN, who had searched for the Higgs, said they had found no evidence of it at the energies where they had expected to find it.

``We've eliminated most of the hunting area,'' Neil Calder, of CERN, told the magazine.

New Scientist said the problem for physicists is that, without the Higgs particle, they do not have a viable theory of matter.

CERN adjourned the search for the Higgs when it closed the LEP (Large Electron-Positron) accelerator, but it is building a Large Hadron Collider that will be able to smash particles at even higher energies in 2007.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: higgs; higgsboson; kludge; peterhiggs; thereisnohiggs
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 61-8081-100101-120121-135 next last
To: jlogajan
"Why, is he ashamed? Petulant? What? "

Probably, more than likely...just disappointed.

101 posted on 12/06/2001 5:33:49 PM PST by Bloody Sam Roberts
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: RightWhale
I will have to insist that during the explosion of an atom bomb, or the operation of a nuclear fission plant, some mass is irreversibly converted to energy but this does not occur in chemical reactions.

You would insist wrongly, then. There is a mass/energy duality involved in both "nuclear" and "chemical" reactions. Nuclear reactions are just more energetic, generally a million times more energetic, so the mass/energy loss is about a million times greater than chemical reactions.

But there is indeed a mass/energy conversion involved even in chemical reactions. But it is so small it is next to impossible to measure the mass change. For instance, if you lit a match in a sealed oxygen filled glass ball, and the only thing that could get out would be light and warmed (conducted) the weight(mass) would go down in proportion to the energy lost to light and heat. Of course, it is such a very very tiny amount no actual scale would note the difference.

102 posted on 12/06/2001 7:54:23 PM PST by jlogajan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 93 | View Replies]

To: Ward Smythe
He thinks it best that there are just some things we don't need to know.

Fundies really do cheer human ignorance -- they seem to revel in it. Learning new things is a threat to them and their religious beliefs. Scarey people.

103 posted on 12/06/2001 7:57:59 PM PST by jlogajan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: jlogajan
Which binding particles are lost in an exothermic chemical reaction? Electrons go to lower energy states, but is this a loss of mass?
104 posted on 12/06/2001 8:30:48 PM PST by RightWhale
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 102 | View Replies]

To: Physicist
"What could be more geeky than two physics guys fighting?!?!"

Two physics guys fighting over a girl.

Even worse: Two physics guys fighting over a physics girl.

105 posted on 12/06/2001 9:22:00 PM PST by Lazamataz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 97 | View Replies]

To: Lazamataz
Even worse: Two physics guys fighting over a physics girl.

Boy, is someone just begging for a particle beam to come flying up his a$$. (Who knows, that might just produce confirmation of the existence of the Higgs Boson. It would like be for science, you know.)
;~)

106 posted on 12/06/2001 10:22:10 PM PST by The Cajun
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 105 | View Replies]

To: jlogajan
Learning new things is a threat to them and their religious beliefs.

I wouldn't classify myself as a "fundie" but as a Christian I have no problem with the concept of a God who is all-knowing, all-powerful, and ever-present. He stands outside our boundaries of time and knowledge.

I fully believe that the search for truth in science will only point to God the creator. I'll admit that maybe all the knowledge is out there for man to discover. But when I hear of the search for something called the "God Particle" I tend to think that it's less about a quest for knowledge than it is about the quest for the "power" to create.

107 posted on 12/07/2001 2:55:23 AM PST by Ward Smythe
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 103 | View Replies]

To: RightWhale
You are asking questions to be a pain, for your answer read Deuteronomy 29:29.

When we don't have an answer, it does not mean God's word is inaccurate, it simply means that we, His creations, including you and the scientist of the world, are not smart enough to understand.

Have a nice day,

Alas

108 posted on 12/07/2001 3:41:51 AM PST by Alas
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 73 | View Replies]

To: Physicist
"Mathematical truth: seven cannot be factored into integers other than itself and one. Mathematical formalism: multiplication is commutative."

This is very much an intuitionist statement, i.e., it's obvious that 7 is prime.

A formalist, however, goes to great pains to prove that 7 is prime using no more than his axiom set. On the way he incidently defines 7, defines multiplication, and in the process also finds that multiplication commutes. The 7's primeness and multiplication's commutivity have equal standing.

Kronecker might have been the consummate intuitionist in stating that only integers are obvious. He also argued that infinity must be excluded from mathematics. But since he couldn't do much useful mathematics from those positions he blithely used all manner of "non-intuitionist" notions in his serious work. It was all a matter of not allowing his philosophy to interfere with his industry.

109 posted on 12/07/2001 5:44:34 AM PST by OBAFGKM
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 95 | View Replies]

To: OBAFGKM
It was all a matter of not allowing his philosophy to interfere with his industry.

Just because I say that objective mathematical truth exists, it doesn't mean that I think that formalism is unnecessary. On the contrary, formalism is the means by which we get at mathematical truth, so the limitations of formalism cannot be avoided. But regardless, our theorems "touch" things that exist independently of our choices of description.

It's like the difference between a description of the Rock of Gibraltar and the Rock itself. I can write about it in a hundred different languages, and some of the things I say in one language won't even make sense when translated into another. Now a formalist comes along and points out that the letters that I put onto paper are a shifting sand: many readings are possible even for a given statement, and not all are equivalent, despite my pains to make the descriptions as accurate as possible. Perhaps he even concludes on the basis of this that the Rock doesn't exist.

My answer is that the descriptions aren't the Rock itself. I can't get the Rock onto paper. But nevertheless the Rock has an objective existence that is independent of whatever I write about it, and the statements do refer to it. Insofar as the statements are correct in the context of their own languages, the statements reflect the properties of the Rock.

A formalist, however, goes to great pains to prove that 7 is prime using no more than his axiom set.

Fair enough, perhaps that was a bad example. Here's another: Gödel's theorem. It's different from the primality of seven, because it doesn't assume a formal system. It is a statement about all possible formal systems. It goes beyond formalism; it's true before I even pick an axiom set. Here's another (related) example: the universality of computation.

110 posted on 12/07/2001 6:46:13 AM PST by Physicist
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 109 | View Replies]

To: Physicist; OBAFGKM
Just because I say that objective mathematical truth exists, it doesn't mean that I think that formalism is unnecessary. On the contrary, formalism is the means by which we get at mathematical truth, so the limitations of formalism cannot be avoided. But regardless, our theorems "touch" things that exist independently of our choices of description.

So who's the chick you two are trying to impress?

111 posted on 12/07/2001 6:47:17 AM PST by Lazamataz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 110 | View Replies]

To: The Cajun
Boy, is someone just begging for a particle beam to come flying up his a$$.

They make adult films like that.

112 posted on 12/07/2001 6:48:14 AM PST by Lazamataz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 106 | View Replies]

To: RightWhale
Which binding particles are lost in an exothermic chemical reaction? Electrons go to lower energy states, but is this a loss of mass?

In "chemical" reactions we usually have some sort of electron orbital change. We also have "thermal" reactions, in which the kinetic energy (energy of motion)of the molecule can be gained or lost (velocity speeded up or slowed down.)

As for the "motion" one, remember that Einstein said that as objects approach the speed of light they get infinitely massive. Well, they gain mass at slower speeds too -- the mass gain is due to the energy associated with motion. (Relativity involved here.)

I suppose it is harder to see the mass gain/loss of electron orbital changes -- but they usually involve imparting or gaining energy from the motion of the particle, or the emission or recption of a photon (light.)

You can see that photons carry off energy -- and that's also your mass loss.

So an exothermic reaction (chemical or thermal) carries away mass/energy in either emitted photons or the transfer of motion energy to a neighbor molecule through collision.

113 posted on 12/07/2001 7:06:29 AM PST by jlogajan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 104 | View Replies]

To: RightWhale
Oh, and here's a good one -- all other things being perfectly the same, a spring has more mass in its coiled state than its uncoiled state! So your old fashion wind-up watch weights more when it is wound up than after it winds down -- but immeasurably so with any real life scale. Mathematically, of course, you can computate the exact mass loss if you know how many ergs of potential energy the spring can store.
114 posted on 12/07/2001 7:10:29 AM PST by jlogajan
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 104 | View Replies]

To: Logophile
For example, we still do not understand how to compute velocity fields in turbulent flows, how to create life from inanimate matter, or how to find socks lost in the drier.

Or how to count 32nd notes in 4/4 time!

115 posted on 12/07/2001 7:35:02 AM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 59 | View Replies]

To: Logophile
Allow me to try to explain the difficulty I had with your original statement. It is not that I think it was incorrect; but rather, it reflects a way of looking at the world that is different from the way that I, as an engineer, view it.

Hah! You engineers! I'm still suffering confusion because the negative pole on my car battery has a big "+" sign on it.

116 posted on 12/07/2001 7:39:01 AM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 65 | View Replies]

To: The Cajun
Boy, is someone just begging for a particle beam to come flying up his a$$. (Who knows, that might just produce confirmation of the existence of the Higgs Boson. It would like be for science, you know.)

Time for the neutron howitzer!

(This is a great thread!!)

117 posted on 12/07/2001 7:47:29 AM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 106 | View Replies]

To: <1/1,000,000th%
Hah! You engineers! I'm still suffering confusion because the negative pole on my car battery has a big "+" sign on it.

It's really quite simple. Here are two little mnemonic devices they taught me in graduate school:

APE = Anode Positive in Electrolysis (i.e., charging)

NAG = Negative Anode in Galvanic operation (i.e., discharging)

Of course, you must remember which is the anode and which is the cathode. The anode is the place where oxidation occurs; the cathode is where reduction occurs.

You also have to remember the oxidation and reduction half-reactions. For the conventional lead-acid battery, the half-reactions are

Pb(s) + HSO4- = PbSO4(s) + H+ + 2e-

PbO2(s) + HSO4- + 3H+ + 2e- = PbSO4(s) + 2H2O

That's all there is to it. Simply remember these simple points next time you have to jump-start your car. (Wait a second: Which pole gets the red lead, and which gets the black? I can never remember.)

118 posted on 12/07/2001 8:07:48 AM PST by Logophile
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 116 | View Replies]

To: jlogajan
they gain mass at slower speeds too

My physics teacher was vague on the mass to energy conversion in chemical reactions. You have made at least 10 times as much sense as old "what's-'is-name".

Would the mass loss in a nuclear reaction be compensated in the relativistic way by the high speed of the resultant particles?

119 posted on 12/07/2001 8:41:24 AM PST by RightWhale
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 113 | View Replies]

To: Darth Reagan
Absolutely. I am a very conservative Christian, and I have never understood some of my brethren's fear of science.
120 posted on 12/07/2001 9:28:34 AM PST by Freemyland
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 53 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 61-8081-100101-120121-135 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson