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To: spycatcher
3 wheel ATC were the victims of lawyer. Like any off road vehicle it was put through some serious abuse by it's owner. The infamous tipping problem happened only in the even of jumping and landing incorrectly (front wheel first with wieght unbalance laterally). Which, if you'll look at his original post would pretty easily qualify for bodily picking it up. One of the other causes was hitting uneven terrain at too high a speed, the 4 wheel ATVs still have that problem though not as much because the two steering wheels makes it easier to drive yourself off of an over tilt. ATCs did not just tip over as you indicated, they tipped because of driver errors in handling terrain too quickly.

It's really a simple matter of physics, 3 points defines a plane and thus is the most stable way to attach an object to a plane. Obviously there's always some way to screw that up, but in your basic non abuse situation 3 points is the most stable. The problem with to points is forward/ backward momentum. Without the gyros for balance this thing would ALWAYS flip flop on the tourque plane (what battlebots, there's lots of two-wheeled killer in there, they never stay verticle without leaning on something, which is effectively what a gyro does). Which creates a problem in the event of low power.

One of the other problem with the Segway is the body position control. Sure it seems cool, no control surfaces to master a learning curve measured in seconds. But it only seems cool if you never walked around downtown Chicago during autumn. I've been hit by winds hard enough to tilt my body, and when I think of getting tilted by wind while on a device that will try to go in the direction my body is leaning I see trouble. Add crowded urban streets and buses to the mix and you've got dead Segway riders.

On another note this thing will be useless for the handicapped. Most people who have difficulties moving around the real problem is with supporting their weight while verticle. They can't handle standing in line any better than they can walking. This is a stand to operate vehicle, anybody that thinks it will improve the mobility of the handicapped is drunk.

Then there's the 65 pounds and major width. This is not a man portable vehicle. If you have any stairs to navigate you're SOL; how about opening a pull door, gonna be hard to grab the handle on your Segway, guess you could get off and drag the thing. Dragging it brings up an interesting question, what happens if you tilt it forward without being on it? That could get annoying as it surges ahead of you until you can't hold the handle then stops. And since it's wider than people you actually won't be able to fit as many of these on the sidewalks of America as you can people. And it's too wide to mingle with traffic on the roads like bicycles.

What we have here is some really cool technology used to make an incredibly lame device. And I realize that you're excited aboutthe tech, I'm excited about the tech, it's really cool. But you have to look at the big picture, how they put all this cool tech together is stupid and the thing is going to be useless. I'm glad one of the postal tests is in New Hampshire in January, nothing like a New England winter to test out a vehicle concept.

193 posted on 12/04/2001 10:33:35 AM PST by discostu
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To: discostu
Good post. The problem with the 3-wheel ATV design is when it's combined with a rider sitting with a high center of gravity and various hilly surfaces and panic braking it's too easy to tip toward the front left and front right. That's not the case with 4 wheels.

I'm thinking that with the Segway, there may be those "issues" you talk about. I know they've had time to think of everything and test it themselves in all sorts of situations, but the real world and idiot riders (like Diane Sawyer) will be the true test. As for wind, people shift their weight into the wind to compensate for the push in the opposite direction. So the net effect should be zero, but there may also be a temporary hiccup.

My biggest question is how it will handle curbs and weird angled drop-offs.

194 posted on 12/04/2001 11:31:19 AM PST by spycatcher
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To: discostu
"Without the gyros for balance this thing would ALWAYS flip flop on the tourque plane (what battlebots, there's lots of two-wheeled killer in there, they never stay verticle without leaning on something, which is effectively what a gyro does). Which creates a problem in the event of low power."

Ah, but that's the whole idea!

This scooter does not use gyros to stay vertical -- it only uses them to detect its attitude, and adjust the torque to the wheels accordingly.

When you slow down to a stop, you lean back. If you close your eyes, you'll feel like you're in a "down elevator" that's slowing to a stop when it reaches the lobby. Straight-down pressure on the soles of your feet.

It's not fighting the "flip flop" factor, it's cashing in on it! Picture a baseball player slowing down from a run to a base, with is feet forward, leaning back. Same idea, basically.

One of the other problem with the Segway is the body position control. Sure it seems cool, no control surfaces to master a learning curve measured in seconds. But it only seems cool if you never walked around downtown Chicago during autumn. I've been hit by winds hard enough to tilt my body, and when I think of getting tilted by wind while on a device that will try to go in the direction my body is leaning I see trouble."

Did you see the handle post do a rapid back-forth flutter when Diane Sawyer let go of it in a panic? Those apparently wild flutters were precisely what was necessary to keep stable. You will note that she did not go flying off. The thing self-corrects 100 times per second.

"On another note this thing will be useless for the handicapped. Most people who have difficulties moving around the real problem is with supporting their weight while verticle. They can't handle standing in line any better than they can walking. This is a stand to operate vehicle, anybody that thinks it will improve the mobility of the handicapped is drunk."

By "handicapped", I presume you mean paralyzed legs. Well, picture the same thing, but with either a seat, or a standing brace. It will become the ultimate prosthetic. They'll be able to control it with subtle upper body movement. It would probably be possible to control it with nothing more than head movement.

Imagine how your paralyzed friend would feel if he could walk next to you on a hike through the woods? Go fishing with you? Rabbit or pheasant hunting? Try that in a wheelchair!

"Then there's the 65 pounds and major width. This is not a man portable vehicle. If you have any stairs to navigate you're SOL"

Major width? Huh? It's a couple inches wider than the people who rode it on GMA. It's probably narrower than me. :) As to the stairs, it has a "follow" mode. You step off, and tug on the handle, and it only has to carry its own weight.

"And it's too wide to mingle with traffic on the roads like bicycles."

It's not really that wide, and besides, it's designed for sidewalks, not roads. The rest of your worries mentioned in that paragraph are silly. It's like arguing against automobiles, because "what happens if granny closes her eyes and stomps on the gas?"

"What we have here is some really cool technology used to make an incredibly lame device."

That's quite the indictment. Me, I'm kinda lame, and I could sure use one to help compensate for it. I'd spend a lot more time outdoors, rather than in front of my computer.

"I'm glad one of the postal tests is in New Hampshire in January, nothing like a New England winter to test out a vehicle concept."

What will you say if after the trial, everyone is grinning ear to ear, reporting incredibly higher productivity, beaucoup dollars saved (even when factoring in cost of vehicles), lower medical costs, etc?

Will there be days when it can't be used due to drifting snow, ice, whatever? Sure. Does that mean it's worthless? If so, time to melt down your lawnmower, and forge it into a snowplow. IOW, the argument strikes me as disingenous. Nothing is a "universal replacement for everything".

This device is a "force multiplier". It lets one person do more than he could do without it. A mailman will be able to cover a route much larger than he covers on foot, and he'll be able to cover it in less time, with less wear and tear on his body. (Mail delivery folks tend to have unhappy joints, but happy orthopedists.)

As a force multiplier, I believe it'll do real nicely.

212 posted on 12/04/2001 10:47:17 PM PST by Don Joe
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