Posted on 12/02/2001 11:10:06 AM PST by a_Turk
The sun's reflection off the crosses and stars over our dead, could blind you.
Semper Fi
It is sad....for they once had a lot of swagger. Its hard to imagine that this continent gave us Cortez, who marched into the middle of the Aztec empire with a few hundred men...and conquered it.
How long has it been since Europe has produced a daring military leader like Napoleon or Rommel...or an intellectual like Newton or Darwin....or a religous leader like Luther or Calvin (do they still have any religious leaders in Europe...other than Imams?). Clearly, Europe is burned out and demographically imploding. I can honestly say that I'll be sad to see it go....it is the homeland of my ancestors.
Funny, I thought the point was quite clear and he strung the ideas together in a coherent manner.
I could deal with his article in detail, but why bother.
So that the rest of us will know just exactly what you object to?
Goldberg's main theme seems to be that much of what passes for "noble" or "courageous" or "moral" thought among European elites tends to be anti-democratic and self-loathing (in the sense of being knee-jerk anti-European or anti-Western).
Do you disagree with this? If so, why?
His examples were the "European view" of capital punishment, the "euro" and related unification issues, and the anti-Israel trend (and overall tendency to want to always side with the perceived "oppressed") in Europe.
Do you disagree with any of these as supporting the author's view? If so, which one(s)?
Let me know. Best,
I explained what I thought was his point in my previous post. Here is what I wrote:
Goldberg's main theme seems to be that much of what passes for "noble" or "courageous" or "moral" thought among European elites tends to be anti-democratic and self-loathing (in the sense of being knee-jerk anti-European or anti-Western).
Remember now? ;)
That Europe is undemocratic?
Not "Europe" per se, but the "elite" opinion of Europe, yes.
That the death penalty shouldn't be a reason not to extradite?
He didn't exactly say this, although one could perhaps infer this from what he wrote. He was more interested in talking about the motives of people such as the Spanish authorities who are taking this stand, and examining whether these motives are hypocritical or disingenuous. His point regarding Spain seems to have been that it was a little funny for a former fascist state whose dictator was still in power well into the '70s to lecture the U.S. on what is right and what is wrong. Do you disagree with this?
That the majority of European citizens would actually like to have the death penelty (his proof for this is....a quote?)?
No, he didn't say this (or even imply it). What he did say was that the decision to abolish the death penalty in most European countries was done in a non-democratic manner. He is also trying to dispel the widespread notion that Everybody In Europe Is Resolutely Against The Death Penalty, which, as he points out, is far from the truth.
That lawyers in Brussels are proceeding against the prime minister of Israel?
Actually, lawyers in Brussels are proceeding against the prime minister of Israel, as I understand things. This is nothing but a statement of fact.
[skipping a few...]
Look, it seems that you are confused by the fact that Goldberg discussed a variety of issues in his piece. (In fact it almost seems like you are confused by the fact that his piece contained more than one sentence...) But they are all related to his main theme, so I don't know what your problem is. As for what his main theme was (IMHO), I refer you to the above quoted block which I quoted from my previous post. Go read it (again, if necessary). Then tell me if you disagree with it, and why.
Or maybe he's really trying to say that European politicians are self-hating elitists who are squandering national identities simply because they want to?
You're actually coming closer to the mark, with this one.
The only point i take away from it is that he dislikes Europeans in general and wishes he had a bigger mud-slinging machine.
That is a more general way of stating what his point was, I suppose. For something more specific, see cited blockquote above.
In any event, pick one of his multiple points and i'll tell you why i object to it if you're interested.
Okay, good idea. Do you object to Goldberg's point that the decision to revoke the death penalty in many European countries was not done in a democratic manner?
Howso' great their clamour, whatsoe'er their claim,
Suffer not the old King under any name!
Seems that we share this sickness with Europe and the leftists of our continents are the carriers of this disease.
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