Why Europe Hates Israel

Well limited wasn't a good word to use. I should have said based strongly on birth like the British system of royalty as Rabbi Michael Gold discusses.

and you "know" Israel is socialist... I bet if we searched long and hard we would find you being right about something.

Maybe instead of struggling to find out where I am right you would be so kind as to educate me.

Secondly, leaving Afghanistan and other Islamic countries to their own devices is a formula for disaster as we've found out.

I'm sorry but that experiment never happened. Unless you call leaving countries to their own devices using a secret agency to promote war and conflict inside Islamic countries.

Thank God Israel bombed Iraq's nuclear facility in the early eighties and thank God for a pro-active foreign policy in this region.

Exactly what did Iraq do to Israel to provoke this? Was a state of war in existance? Oh, that's right, the US and Isreal have declared war on the world for perpetuity. By supporting the principle of preventative bombing you must then support the federal government preventing you from being trouble by comming to your home and bombing you if you have any guns. Because those guns could be used for evil after all.

Exactly what did Iraq do to Israel to provoke this? Was a state of war in existance? Oh, that's right, the US and Isreal have declared war on the world for perpetuity. By supporting the principle of preventative bombing you must then support the federal government preventing you from being trouble by comming to your home and bombing you if you have any guns. Because those guns could be used for evil after all.

Actually, Iraq is still technically at war with Israel now that you mentioned it. Moroever, why? Do you remember those Scud missiles? That's why foreign policy is left to those who have some foresight and who are responsible for the security of their nation. Hiding behind a computer and wimpering about some vacuous principle doesn't cut it.

If national health care defines- to you- a country as socialist as it does to some people then so be it.

Otherwise, Israel is as entrepreneurial and capitalist as any country on Earth. I believe Israel has more private companies on NASDAQ then any foreign country (although I may be wrong but then it's in second place or so).

Being a young country some basic things like phone service was State owned. Now there are several private enterprise cellular and cable companies competing for the last Shekel.

And whatever the State still owns it is attempting to unload.

Do you remember those Scud missiles?

Yep. Weren't those after the bombing of Iraq's nuclear plant though? So are you saying that if you go and attack someone then if they retaliate later that is proof that they would have attacked you first?

Hiding behind a computer and wimpering about some vacuous principle doesn't cut it.

The truth revealed along with an ad hominem attack. You see, principles do matter to me. If they don't to you then I can only feel sorry for you and the world as much as you help to shape it. So your actions are justified by what is immediately useful to you? This approach of course sacrifices the future for today. To use your approach is to not own history.

Was a state of war in existance?

Emmmmmmmmmmmm? YES.

Here is the interesting thing. In reality, Israel could attack all these countries- with the exception of Egypt and Jordan- every single day. They all declared war in 1948 on Israel- reaffirmed with the three NO's at Khartoum after the 1967 war- and never rescinded.

In actuality a State of War exists- of their own doing- between Israel and those Arab nations and Israel can defend itself at any time and place and manner of it's choosing.

The other Arabs can always follow Egypt(no matter how lame) and Jordan and choose peace.

Yep. Weren't those after the bombing of Iraq's nuclear plant though? So are you saying that if you go and attack someone then if they retaliate later that is proof that they would have attacked you first?

Were you privy to Israeli intelligence? Don't you know by now that it is common knowledge that Hussein has been looking to make chemical, biological and nuclear weapons. He's already made chemical weapons used for offensive purposes as he has displayed with the Kurds. The justification for bombing is more evident now than it has ever been. But then again, we leave second-guessers like you to run nation-states, right?

The truth revealed along with an ad hominem attack. You see, principles do matter to me. If they don't to you then I can only feel sorry for you and the world as much as you help to shape it. So your actions are justified by what is immediately useful to you? This approach of course sacrifices the future for today. To use your approach is to not own history.

You'be been here since Nov. 24, likely coming back as a retread and you're going to preach to me about principle? What you perceive as principle is nothing but special-pleading.

I honestly don't know how the Israelis live like this day after day. I always was appalled by the terroism they endure, but of course it changes ones prospective to have it happen to you.

Were you privy to Israeli intelligence?

Secret groups tend to know all sorts of useful information when it suits them and nothing when it does not. Witness 9-11 and the lack of knowledge we had about our own country being attacked. But if we need to go bomb someone suprise, suprise we know what time of the day their leader has a BM.

Don't you know by now that it is common knowledge that Hussein has been looking to make chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.

It is also "common knowledge" that the US has those weapons. So we should be attacked just for having weapons? Who should organize the attack?

But then again, we leave second-guessers like you to run nation-states, right?

Sorry, I'm not a meglomaniac so I'm unlikely to rule a modern all powerful nation-state. I'd be happy to be President of a limited, Constitutional Republic as the US once had. Running such a country is easy as there is little for such a President to do as he has no need to dictate to people how to live their lives.

Some of us retros think the US should have weapons of mass destruction, and Iraq shouldn't. I don't think we will change our mind anytime soon. Sorry about that.

Secret groups tend to know all sorts of useful information when it suits them and nothing when it does not. Witness 9-11 and the lack of knowledge we had about our own country being attacked. But if we need to go bomb someone suprise, suprise we know what time of the day their leader has a BM.

And you've said exactly what by this paragraph? I ask you again, were you privy to Israeli intelligence on the reason and purpose for the nuclear facility?

It is also "common knowledge" that the US has those weapons. So we should be attacked just for having weapons? Who should organize the attack?

I see, you would relativize the issue to include democratic states. But maybe, as has been stated to you, you didn't relaize that Iraq was still techically at war with Israel. Again, you assume knowledge which you didn't have nor will you ever have about the Israeli actions. Moreover, anyone at any time can try to take on the U.S. Several Islamic countries would like to get their hands on the stuff which would facilitate that. They may try. But before they do I'm hopeful the U.S. would take their capability out like Israel did.

Sorry, I'm not a meglomaniac so I'm unlikely to rule a modern all powerful nation-state. I'd be happy to be President of a limited, Constitutional Republic as the US once had. Running such a country is easy as there is little for such a President to do as he has no need to dictate to people how to live their lives.

You living in a dream-world? Do you know what the Open Door Notes and Open Door Policy was? Or is it that your understanding of U.S. history is limited to your dream life. I'm a Canadian and I seem to know more about U.S. history than you do.

The U.S. spends $50 billion a year in the Gulf not for Israel but to keep the oil safe and flowing for Western countries.

And it can expect to spend more than $50 billion in this region, plus several times $50 billion elsewhere around the planet for whatever wars it prosecutes, because it's not spending for the people of the regions, but only for its own interests.

And most people are not going put up with an aimless open-ended conflict with most of the world's population, and when that day comes there will be no rock for the likes of you to hide under. It will take a few years, however.

Unfortunately this is a world, and particulalry among the Islamic countries, where only force is respected and not some wimpering concept of foreign policy.

Israel has been using force for the last 50 years and there is no end in sight. The general population of the West is getting more and more sick of it as well. We are not going to follow in that country's footsteps, and if you wish to do so you're not going to do it from your keyboard.

Since the ChiComs, in ten years will be approx. 80% dependent on ME oil

The Chinese have sources of oil closer to home including the Central Asian Republics and likely the Spratly Islands. Their presence will increase in the Middle East when ME countries recognize that America is incapable of any positive interactions with them because of its obsession with the Israeli state only. And there are many areas of the world besides the Middle East where oil supplies can be interdicted, Pakistan and Indonesia foremost among them.

There will also be many areas of the world where the Chinese will be accepted because they will actually be building infrastructure for the countries, instead of just spending money to bomb and to occupy them. Just like Tibet and Afghanistan, America will ignore them only to find out later their tactical and strategic value. But by then civilization will have moved west.

the U.S. can assert its place in that area without having to wimper out

And how do you guarantee safe passage from the Middle East to the destination countries, genius? You really are so deulsional to think that America can be everywhere at the same time, occupying the entire planet.

You need to understand that the Bin Ladens of the world, and the Arab Islamics of the world are wholly responsible for their own actions. Quit treating terrorists and nation-states like whimpering babies.

As a commander, Ariel Sharon is responsible for his own actions and the actions of those who were supported and directed by him. Stop whimpering for war criminals like him.

And you've said exactly what by this paragraph?

Well I didn't say I was privy to any secret information. That is self evident. My point is that a secret organization is hardly one to rely on for useful information. Secrecy is conspiracy.

you didn't relaize that Iraq was still techically at war with Israel

No I recognize fully the danger of broad, perpetual wars as demonstrated in this case. The problem being instead of working out differences by diplomacy, the military is used as the first resort.

Or is it that your understanding of U.S. history is limited to your dream life. I'm a Canadian and I seem to know more about U.S. history than you do.

We'll I'm sure you are way smarter than me. I'm just a dolt. But please lower yourself to explain to me what the Open Door Notes has to do with any argument you are making.

Looks like Lent and I and other supporters of Ariel Sharon are in good company.

And it can expect to spend more than $50 billion in this region, plus several times $50 billion elsewhere around the planet for whatever wars it prosecutes, because it's not spending for the people of the regions, but only for its own interests

I'm crying. Yes, this is quite unfortunate that the U.S. is looking after it's own interests and the interests of Western democracies.

And most people are not going put up with an aimless open-ended conflict with most of the world's population, and when that day comes there will be no rock for the likes of you to hide under. It will take a few years, however.

They can behave themselves or they will pay a price. If they wish to foster Islamic fundamentalism and Jihadic groups then they will pay a price as well. It's a new world after 9/11 get on board or get off.

Israel has been using force for the last 50 years and there is no end in sight. The general population of the West is getting more and more sick of it as well. We are not going to follow in that country's footsteps, and if you wish to do so you're not going to do it from your keyboard.

The Arab Islamic states have been using force for the last 50 years. Israel made peace with Egypt and Jordan and that still wasn't enough for your Jihadist friends.

There will also be many areas of the world where the Chinese will be accepted because they will actually be building
infrastructure for the countries, instead of just spending money to bomb and to occupy them. Just like Tibet and Afghanistan, moved west.

The U.S., since it is one of the biggest if not the biggest countries giving foreign aid will makes its allies as well. So what.

And how do you guarantee safe passage from the Middle East to the destination countries, genius? You really are so deulsional o think that America can be everywhere at the same time, occupying the entire planet.

They're doing it now and will continue to do it, genius.

As a commander, Ariel Sharon is responsible for his own actions and the actions of those who were supported and directed by him. Stop whimpering for war criminals like him.

Since this is 2001, and not Lebanon, what does this have to do with the price of tea in China? Arafat is a terrorist. The Intifada is terrorism as the U.S. has said and Israel is a nation state protecting its territorial integrity. End of story.

Be careful how you argue.

...free to pass judgment while absolved of the moral responsibilities of wielding actual power.

That is a perfect summation of liberal thought in general, be it in Europe or America.

Well I didn't say I was privy to any secret information. That is self evident. My point is that a secret organization is hardly one to rely on for useful information. Secrecy is conspiracy.

You bet it's self-evident. If it's self-evident you have nothing more to contribute except idle speculation left to the arm-chair quaterbacks.

We'll I'm sure you are way smarter than me. I'm just a dolt. But please lower yourself to explain to me what the Open Door Notes has to do with any argument you are making.

This is your statement:
I'd be happy to be President of a
limited, Constitutional Republic as the US once had

The U.S. became a great nation because of the OPEN DOOR POLICY, not in spite of it. The latter requires the U.S. to assert its interests internationally and thank God she did. If the U.S. had the kind of notions you're arguing for the Soviets, ChiComs and other assorted demagogic countries would have filled the void.

I'm crying. Yes, this is quite unfortunate that the U.S. is looking after it's own interests and the interests of Western democracies.

First, the Constitution of our government does not give it the power to look after the vague interests of "Western democracies." Second, how is it that the US has a national interest that supercedes that of its people? After all, if I am pursuing my interests from day to day why would I need the US to pursue them for me? So it must be that people in power are pursuing their interests which then must conflict with mine while getting me to fund it. It is very unfair really.

They're doing it now and will continue to do it, genius.

What perpetual empire can you point to? I dare say all have fallen hard when their system of plunder caused them to immolate.